Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

Did a resto in 2005 on a 71 442 convert,that was owned by same owner since 1973. I could have convinced him to go wirh ram air and change a lot of stuff,but given his longevity with the car and the known history,we put it back to the way he has always known it. His number 1 request when we started the project was that I locate an original 8 track,to replace the one stolen in Oct 1973. He didn't even want to change to a sport wheel,even though he liked the feel.
So there is at least one 442 out there that has not been altered. Most unaltered cars usually have some ownership history. The rest of the crowd want a car they "would" have ordered.

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

This thread is a bummer.

HO455, you really are way out there trying to make a point that everyone respects even if they don't happen to agree with it.

But I'm sorry, we have several Olds and BOP shows a year here in the Northeast Ohio area and we have bunches of realy nice 442's and plain old Cutlass Supremes of all colors, shapes, and restoration levels.

Oh well, I just still don't agree that it's that easy to fool someone that knows about these cars. In my opinion, it's those fringe cars that probably are real but don't have the paperwork to prove it that suffer.

That's just the way it is. But it's no where near as bad as you make it sound.

Just my opinion though.

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

I agree with JOZW30-quit the whining about the fakes. I love clones. It just makes the real deal that much more valuable and collectible. The sky is the limit for authentic cars in the future. Keep the clones coming Parts Joe!

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

I agree with you RM!

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

The people reproducing the parts are not the problem, the problem is the people buying the parts and trying to sell them as original cars not clones. Its finally come down to its not just the paperwork or the parts you now need history without it no one knows whats real or not. How many people are buying real original pieces to put on cars and resell them as real knowing they make repops makes people look a little closer at the cars then before repops were available.
I have worked on some of Joe's cars and yes he has some cars he put together but if I owned the parts place I would do the same. I really have never heard of him selling a clone as a real car. He also has many real cars I would love to have. So lets quite winning about the repop stuff since there is always a way to tell it apart from the real thing.
I also never hear people whinning about repop tires even though if you put 15 in on a Camaro it could be mistaked for a Z or Yenko. Bottom line no matter what its buyer beware. How about when GM was selling repop sheetmetal as original Gm, now thats really misrepresenting the item at least repop parts are being sold as repop parts.

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

Right on the money, Paul. I feel the emergence of the good repro parts and clones will only make the real ones more valuable, but will be harder to investigate and will take flawless, COMPLETE owner documentation. No holes in its history covered up or gaps. Not always easy to spot, though.

Finding repro parts on a car doesn't necessarily negate its authenticity, but should raise a lot of flags if the car is being represented as something else. Best to leave it to the real experts on that model if you're shelling out stupid money.

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

[ QUOTE ]

Oh well, I just still don't agree that it's that easy to fool someone that knows about these cars.


Hey JOZW30 ,

Is it live or Memorex? Tell me if you believe this one to be authentic? You seem to think that a well-done clone can fool none of the Olds guys. Tell me with your W-30 expertise whether this one is real or fake? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif I have my own opinion after seeing it & hearing it run at the fall 2006 Mecum auction. It also had a very unique broadcast sheet that had NO mention of W-30. The owner has a reason for this though that sounds legit.https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif Right!!! I guess this Muscle Car Review magazine is supposed to prove some level of authenticity also as if they were not converting/cloning cars way back in the late eighties. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/drool.gif Good luck! But it had ALL THE RIGHT PARTS. Thanks Parts Place! The owner seems to be willing to do or say anything to establish some level of credibility for this car. But you should still be able to weed out the fakes for us novices. Maybe you better E-mail a few of the bidders and tip them off as to your take. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif Just my opinion though.

W-30 Convertible
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-W-30...1QQcmdZViewItem


Real Olds Power Chat

http://www.realoldspower.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=41977

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

So much for this seller's theory that NO 1969 Broadcast sheets-say W-30. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif Here is a car purchased November 1969 with a broadcast sheet that clearly is marked W-30. Maybe I am just confused though. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/shocked.gif

http://www.colinsclassicauto.com/detail.php?car=12

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

i have been told that 70 olds buildsheets do not have a vin!??!

John

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

I just love his marketing scheme!!!! Start out with a '69 Cutlass, add this kit and some water.... poof Instant H/O!!!!
(1969 - 1969 Cutlass/442 ) HURST OLDSMOBILE CUTLASS FACTORY APPEARANCE KIT H/O - COMPLETE KIT TO CONVERT ANY 1969 CUTLASS "S" 442 OR CONVERTIBLE INTO A 69 HURST OLDS LOOK-A-LIKE. KIT INCLUDES: 1 DUAL SNORKEL HOOD SCOOP, 1 PAIR OF SPECIAL MIRRORS AND MOUNTING HARDWARE, 1 REAR SPOILER WING, 3 HURST OLDS EMBLEMS, 455 H/O SCOOP DECALS, 1 DOC WATSON GLOVE BOX EMBLEM ANOTHER PART NOT INCLUDED THAT WOULD TAKE YOUR CAR UP A NOTCH IS A SET OF ORIGINAL 455 "D" HEADS, WHICH WE ARE ALSO REPRODUCING. WITH THE PARTS WE MAKE YOU CAN BUILD AN EXACT DUPLICATE OF THE FAMED 1969 HURST OLDS

The price tag of all of this--$929. Used to be the mirrors alone were close to this price. Granted, nothing can replace paperwork and original owners, but this is borderlining on stupid easy clones!!!

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

Well, you guys that own real W-30 cars, and have no problem with clones because you believe they raise the value of your real, authentic, matching numbers W-30, just wait and see how hard it will be to sell your car when some Oldsmobile guys begin doing this....

http://www.yenkocamaroparts.com/information.htm

Last Thursday (on Thanksgiving), I gave thanks to Pontiac Historical Services for eliminating any doubt that my 1969 Firebird 400 wasn't born a 6-banger 1967 Camaro. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

[ QUOTE ]
I just love his marketing scheme!!!! Start out with a '69 Cutlass, add this kit and some water.... poof Instant H/O!!!!
(1969 - 1969 Cutlass/442 ) HURST OLDSMOBILE CUTLASS FACTORY APPEARANCE KIT H/O - COMPLETE KIT TO CONVERT ANY 1969 CUTLASS "S" 442 OR CONVERTIBLE INTO A 69 HURST OLDS LOOK-A-LIKE. KIT INCLUDES: 1 DUAL SNORKEL HOOD SCOOP, 1 PAIR OF SPECIAL MIRRORS AND MOUNTING HARDWARE, 1 REAR SPOILER WING, 3 HURST OLDS EMBLEMS, 455 H/O SCOOP DECALS, 1 DOC WATSON GLOVE BOX EMBLEM ANOTHER PART NOT INCLUDED THAT WOULD TAKE YOUR CAR UP A NOTCH IS A SET OF ORIGINAL 455 "D" HEADS, WHICH WE ARE ALSO REPRODUCING. WITH THE PARTS WE MAKE YOU CAN BUILD AN EXACT DUPLICATE OF THE FAMED 1969 HURST OLDS

The price tag of all of this--$929. Used to be the mirrors alone were close to this price. Granted, nothing can replace paperwork and original owners, but this is borderlining on stupid easy clones!!!

[/ QUOTE ]..Got any PICS of your" STINKY H/O"..?? What # is yours..?? Mine's # 57

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

My stinky H/O! The original owner failed to send in paperwork for the little owners tag. I have never tried to search out the original owner as he spent time in the 'iron bar hotel'.

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

Bird Man


Wow 200K-not too bad for a clone. Wonder what a real one with perfect docs is worth?$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif PHS is nice but really only comes into play on cars worth more than 30 or 40K https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/ooo.gif-RM

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

HO455,

First, sorry if I offended you or anyone else with my opinions.

As for that e-bay car, I stand by what I said. I can't tell whether it's real based on the info in the auction. If I was forced to make a decision on that particular car without seeing it in person, I'd keep my money in my pocket and wait for a car with better documents. Anyone on this forum buying this car without climbing all over it in person?

Like you & others have said, the seller has gone to a lot of trouble to create a comfort level regarding the authenticity of this car. For me that says there is nothing "bulletproof".

Therefore, back to my original comments, I'd treat this thing like a "could be" W30, and would not pay top dollar. Unless while looking at it the seller produced something that could not be questioned. You’re talking about being “fooled”, what is so tricky about this?

Maybe because I'm a poor schmuck and couldn't afford to be wrong about something like this. I'm guessing most guys that can spend this kind of money on a hunk of metal and plastic won't miss meals when it comes time to sell it and they’ve learned it's not real.

By the way, how does what the car sounds like 36 years later have anything to do with its authenticity? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif

As for the 69 H/O "kit", didn't see where it included the one-of-a-kind intake, and air-cleaner assembly ($$$$$$$$). But I guess there are people out there that would be fooled without them.......... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Again, sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings.

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

-------I dont think you hurt anyones feelings, JOZ, but you must admit there arent many on this sight that wouldnt go and look at a $200,000 purchase. At the very least anyone on here would send a qualified agent. I dont think anyone else here would consider this W30 an absolutely real car without seeing it either. The upper-end bidders on this 442 probably have already done their due diligence, and if they havent and end up with a clone, albeit a very good one then as far as Im concerned its their problem. Educate thyself, buyer!!!........Bill S

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

I agree Bill, that's exactly what I've been trying to say.

Quote: "Anyone on this forum buying this car without climbing all over it in person?"

Joe

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

Hey JOZW30

I was just kidding around with you. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif I agree on this Blue 1970 W-30 E-bay car though. It really presents a lot more questions than answers. Take good care! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif John

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

It's all good John. It's a strange "hobby" right now.

I'm glad at this point I'm not into it for the profit. I sold a frame off 68 H/O a few years back & it's funded the two cars I have now (72 W30 4 speed & 83 H/O). I hope to hang on to these because things have changed so much over the last couple of years, I couldn't afford to replace them with anything I'd like.

The seller of the blue 70 really should take the money and run based on the auction info.

Joe

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Oh well, I just still don't agree that it's that easy to fool someone that knows about these cars.


Hey JOZW30 ,

Is it live or Memorex? Tell me if you believe this one to be authentic? You seem to think that a well-done clone can fool none of the Olds guys. Tell me with your W-30 expertise whether this one is real or fake? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif I have my own opinion after seeing it & hearing it run at the fall 2006 Mecum auction. It also had a very unique broadcast sheet that had NO mention of W-30. The owner has a reason for this though that sounds legit.https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif Right!!! I guess this Muscle Car Review magazine is supposed to prove some level of authenticity also as if they were not converting/cloning cars way back in the late eighties. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/drool.gif Good luck! But it had ALL THE RIGHT PARTS. Thanks Parts Place! The owner seems to be willing to do or say anything to establish some level of credibility for this car. But you should still be able to weed out the fakes for us novices. Maybe you better E-mail a few of the bidders and tip them off as to your take. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif Just my opinion though.

W-30 Convertible
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1970-W-30...1QQcmdZViewItem


Real Olds Power Chat

http://www.realoldspower.com/phpBB2/...ic.php?t=41977

[/ QUOTE ]


I had two Customers interested in purchasing this car, so I gave it a good look over at the auction. I could not determine if it was a real W30 or not?

The Broadcast card did not show the W30 option, while I have never seen an authentic W30 broadcast card without it, this could have been a factory mistake?

btw; Original Blank Broadcast cards, from the OEM have been avialable for years, many of these original blanks have also been sold on ebay! So, as a W30 Collector and Enthusiast a W30 Broadcast Card, "paperwork", is not an end all.

At least you can be very certain that the current owner did not have one of the ebay broadcast sheets made up.

W30s also would have had a specific gear ratio as std. or optional. Since the rear was Rusty and Crusty I could not see it?

The $$$$$ amount on Bill of sale to the second owner, which was present, was for far less than the value of a real W30 Convertible 4 speed, but was offered up as proof and validity.

We communicated with the "Original" Owner to see if he had any additional docs or Vintage Pics. He said that it was a real car and that everyone in town knew the car, but unfortunately no pics or additional docs?



All original sheet metal 1970 and 71 W30s which I have inspected have a factory inspection mark showing W30. I could not see it on this car? They were only built (at least 99%) at the Lansing Plant, in Detroit. But, parts could have been changed?

To those who do not follow these cars, only 96 were ever built in a Convertible and 4 speed, so they are worth the effort to try and validate.

Per John's Post. The VIN is not on the broadcast card, only the body sequence number, which corresponds to the trim tag.

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

Hi Stefano,


Very well said regarding the 1970 blue W-30 convertible that was offered for sale at the Mecum auction and on E-bay. As I said before this particular car raised a great deal more questions than it was able to answer. From what I understand the seller had a reserve price of around 400K when it went through the fall 2006 Mecum auction. This was not a realistic price for this particular car considering the lack of definitive proof/ history as well as the overall condition of the car.

I agree about the rarity and the desirability of the W-30 convertible four speed cars. They have always been on the elite list of convertible Muscle cars. But it seems as though lately they have become extremely sought after & prized. I think the 1970-2 W-30 convertibles have always had one of the most beautiful bodies of the entire GM convertible line-up. Although, I equally appreciate the W-30 coupes due to their unique styling & performance advantages. I certainly value the rarity and extremely collectible nature of the entire stable of GM's elite convertible Muscle Cars whether they be an LS-6 Chevelle SS convertible, RAIV Judge convertible, or a Buick Stage one convertible. Clearly for Oldsmobile the four-speed cars were something special in the W-30s making them the most sought after for the Olds marquee.

As far as legitimate W-30 convertible’s that have changed hands–I have to rely on what I have learned from both renowned Oldsmobile restorers/authorities Gorden Vandermuellen and Troy Thornton. Both Mr. Vandermuellen and Mr. Thornton recently told me that all of the authentic and completely documented W-30 converts are in the hands of astute collectors that don’t plan or need to sell their cars anytime soon. They claim that most of what they have seen moving through auction houses or for sale are just very well done clones. Thornton said that authentic convertible W-30 cars with perfect pedigrees don’t even come up for sale, and if one should that the seller could name their price. Thornton told me that when one does comes up for sale it generally moves from one collector’s hands to another collector without any public knowledge of the sale. The last true & fully documented 1970 442 W-30 convertible four-speed car that traded hands was sold within a complete collection of a dozen or so RARE Oldsmobile’s. This collection featured all true concours number-one conditioned pedigreed cars that sold as a whole to an East Coast Muscle Car collector. This collection included several W-30 coupes, HOs and others along side a 1971 W-30 (one of thirty-two) and 1972 W-30 (one of thirty-three) convertible four-speed cars all w/ironclad pedigrees that all benefited from frame off rotisserie restorations. The 1970, which sold as part of the collection-I, have personally seen and I can say it was one of the most stunning autos & restorations I have yet seen. This 1970 W-30 convertible was ordered new out of the Jim Stohlman Oldsmobile Dealership. It was originally ordered to compete in the convertible four-speed stock classes of NHRA drag racing. It was Platinum & black w/four speed, no power options at all and a W-27 rear end.

I must mention also what a great help Troy Thornton has been to me recently. I am in the process of doing a complete restoration of my 1969 Hurst/ Olds and Troy has provided me with a great deal of advice as to what is or is not correct etc… he has always been kind & patient when we have spoken.

Lastly I will include a cool picture of 1970 W-30 post coupe that was owned & restored by longtime Olds guy Greg Goden. It was raced under the name of the Skunk and featured a four-speed and a W-27 rear end.

I hope everyone has a great Christmas and New Year ahead!

Cheers https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif


John


[image]http://i177.photobucket.com/albums/w...odenSkunk2.jpg[/image]

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

W-Machines Rock!

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

[ QUOTE ]
My stinky H/O! The original owner failed to send in paperwork for the little owners tag. I have never tried to search out the original owner as he spent time in the 'iron bar hotel'.

[/ QUOTE ]...Is your VIN # in the DEMMER records..??

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

With total producting for 70-72 W30 converts being less than 500 and the survivor rate being 50-60% its no wonder these cars trade hands without the help of auctions or public sales.
Having said that I know of two 70 W30 converts that sold in the past month after being on ebay. What is more public than that? Both cars needed restoration. I can count 5 more that changed hands in the past year,again various degrees of restoration or preservation quality. I know of 6 71 W-30 converts that changed hands in the past year, two on ebay,2 through dealers and two privately.
Keep in mind that the low production is directly related to low turnover.
Ironicly,in my youth I was always led to believe that Buick was the number two division to Cadillac in terms of being upscale. I guess the way GM marketed themselves led to that. Olds was always alligned with Chevrolet and Buick was alligned with Pontiac franchises. The majority,as I saw it had Cadillac dealers in the mix with Chev and Olds.
As far as there not being any nice 442 W30 cars for sale to the general public,its all about the numbers. Not too many Hemi Cuda's either. You will see Hemi Cuda's at BJ though and possible not too many Olds because in the past they do have not gotten the attention they deserve. Maybe the 08 auctions will be different?

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

Ho455: I am familiar with the collection mentioned above. It is truly MIND BLOWING!!! Thanx also for all the great W-30 photos in your gallery section. Everyone should check them out if they are into Oldsmobile. RM

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

who ended up with that manual boxed 4 speed 72 w-30 ragtop from toledo?

that thing was sweet.

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

Devil!

I thought I had stated that my car is not on the partial list. They found a complete list of '68's and about 500 of the 906 '69's. Does that make mine more rare??? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

[ QUOTE ]
The people reproducing the parts are not the problem, the problem is the people buying the parts and trying to sell them as original cars not clones. Its finally come down to its not just the paperwork or the parts you now need history without it no one knows whats real or not. How many people are buying real original pieces to put on cars and resell them as real knowing they make repops makes people look a little closer at the cars then before repops were available.
I have worked on some of Joe's cars and yes he has some cars he put together but if I owned the parts place I would do the same. I really have never heard of him selling a clone as a real car. He also has many real cars I would love to have. So lets quite winning about the repop stuff since there is always a way to tell it apart from the real thing.
I also never hear people whinning about repop tires even though if you put 15 in on a Camaro it could be mistaked for a Z or Yenko. Bottom line no matter what its buyer beware. How about when GM was selling repop sheetmetal as original Gm, now thats really misrepresenting the item at least repop parts are being sold as repop parts.

[/ QUOTE ]

Have to agree with that.

Wonder how hard it would have been for me to find an original radiator for my 70 L78 Camaro. I'd say next to impossible. If one did come up can you imagine how much I would have had to shell out? Joe just reproduced a very nice copy and I couldn't be happier. Give the guy a break.

Re: Repro Pontiac round port/Oldsmobile W30 cyl he
 

[ QUOTE ]
Devil!

I thought I had stated that my car is not on the partial list. They found a complete list of '68's and about 500 of the 906 '69's. Does that make mine more rare??? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]....I guess it makes your car a " 442 that came with black interior and a cameo paint job".....LOL...