Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

Mark,

I agree. I have followed this thread with intrest. First off I am against trim tag removal or replacement, but this law is toothless. Now when I think of this law I wonder just how the goverment will find a bonified way to convict a bad guy with no vehicle records from GM to prove the TT is fake in the first place?

The most likely way to convict would be to get subject "B" to testify that he or she witnessed subject "A" switch the tag.

IMO the best way to fix the problem is to outlaw the tags right? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

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Some random thoughts.....
I just hope this law doesn't impact innocent people negatively. Sure its a great tool in the fight against fraud, but it won't stop the problem, and isn't the total answer.
For one thing,I think that more pressure needs to be put on the manufacturers to come up with and maintain the records on the vehicle data related to the vin.
There should be hell to pay for GM simply saying "we don't have those documents". Once again the onus falls to the little guy and the big corporations are off scott free.
Imagine if you will, that GM was forced to dig up the documents that they have. There would be no question as to the authenticity of a vehicle.


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All of us would love nothing more than for GM to cough up those docs. Having said that, it will do nothing for fraudsters who take VIN numbers known from GM docs and turn them into cars by buying fake VIN and trim tags and slapping them on a clean body.

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In Canada we are spoiled, because any Canadian sold GM vehicle has micro fiche stored vin based corporate documentation available to anyone with a vin,not just the vehicle owner, so there is no possibility of "faking" a tag to read what you want it to read.


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True but docs are not the be all and end all with respect to eliminating fraud in the hobby. As stated before, you can still make a car from nothing more than a GM of Canada doc.

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Another thing is, I know of more than a few people who during a resto, remove the plates from the car to either dip or blast the body, and prevent damage to the plates. Having done that makes them a criminal? I don't feel that is right. A proper and complete concours resto on a rusty shell cannot occur without introducing potentially hazardous materials and processes to the tags, which are really quite fragile. I realize there is provision for this in the law, but what is to stop a person from causing trouble for someone else who has done this for legitimate reason? who is to say if it was a legitimate reason or not? It is now at his cost and expense to prove otherwise that he did not have criminal intention. Even if he is innocent its gonna cost him some money to prove his innocence.


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There are provisions for people who are repairing or restoring a car. It is not illegal for someone to remove the trim tag for restoration purposes.

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Lastly keep in mind, that in the eighties and early nineties before there was so much aftermarket sheetmetal available, a common and generally accepted way of fixing a really rusty rare car was to re-body it fully or partially.
I really thought nothing of people who were replacing rusty muscle car bodies with six cylinder grandma car rust free bodies, it all seemed fine and good, and actually a lot of people preferred this method as it retained the factory assembly techniques and engineering, which was better than hammered up patch panels ,bondo and chicken wire.
Are the people who currently buy and sell these cars from early restorations headed for the slammer too?.


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Just remove the fake tag.

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Another casualty will be people who have been unknowingly ripped off and (also unknowingly) own a fake tagged car. They will potentially be criminals when they do not deserve to be.


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Well if they are attempting to "pass the buck" then yes, they should be. If someone found out they were screwed and then turned around and tried to sell the car as is to someone else, then they are guilty of fraud. Remember the law uses the word "knowingly" so if someone truly believes that they are selling a legitimate car even though they are not, then the law would not apply to them but rather look at who he bought the car from and so-on. Whoever placed the trim tag on the car is the one who ultimately guilty. If someone finds out he bought a dud and then wants to sell it, I suggest removing the trim tag and leaving the car without one or buy a fake trim tag with the word "replacement" on it.

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

Hylton - So basically what you're saying with your last statement is that the man/woman that got ripped off, maybe not even knowingly, should remove the trim tag, or clearly mark it as "bastardized"; therefore almost certainly taking it hard in the buttocks, and selling that re-bodied or re-tagged Z for half to a quarter of the price that they paid for it?

Yeah-- Keep dreaming. I don't think that's going to happen.

Those in favor of this are more than well on their way to completely collapsing/wrecking the vintage GM market...

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

[ QUOTE ]
Hylton - So basically what you're saying with your last statement is that the man/woman that got ripped off, maybe not even knowingly, should remove the trim tag, or clearly mark it as "bastardized"; therefore almost certainly taking it hard in the buttocks, and selling that re-bodied or re-tagged Z for half to a quarter of the price that they paid for it?

Yeah-- Keep dreaming. I don't think that's going to happen.

Those in favor of this are more than well on their way to completely collapsing/wrecking the vintage GM market...

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Wow! So what you are saying midas is that the person who got screwed should pass the fake car on to the next guy? That's not cool either............

At least with this law that guy COULD choose to go back to the seller and get his money back, if not, the seller could face 3x damages!

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

Uh, no, what I'm saying is that you have people right now that own cars that are "incorrectly" tagged with no intent to commit fraud. What you guys are basically saying is: "Too bad sucker. Now prepare to lose your arse." This is thus a financial hardship, and what I'm saying is that it will wreck the hobby.

Besides, what delusional thought do you have to think that anyone would actually own up to actually replacing a tag? Or that the poor sap that unknowingly has a car w/a replacement tag, or an unknown re-body would waste time/money to track down previous owners?

Yeah, right...

Here's a good one: "My car was being restored, and that's the way it came back to me. I had no idea..." That would be my defense, and I'd tell you to pound it.

What if that X66 you have is fake? How do you know it's not and/or what proof do you have? We all know that engine and tranny stamping can be done all over the place, and that all paperwork can be faked. Oh no, here we go...

Hey, maybe the dealer wrecked and re-bodied it... Who knows-- 1969 was 38 years ago. A guy that worked for my father years ago worked at a Ford dealer, and the maintenance guys tore up a new Boss 302 badly, which was then fixed. Hey, it's possible. Cars are nothing more than consumer goods-- Durable goods, really. So, back to the X66-- What do you do if you have to sell it, and you have to defend yourself?

See what I mean... Changes a bit, doesn't it...?

I would say that the possibility of a re-tag or re-body is just part of owning a Chevy, or any vintage car, but especially a Chevy... And that's the way it is.

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

Too easy...remove the fake tag. Yes it is not worth what it was but that is what happens when you buy a car with a fake tag. Hard to get sued if you sell it without a fake tag.

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

What? Have you been drinking tonight? Heavily...?

Charlie-- You can't be serious. Navigate my scenario above (X66), and I'd like your thoughts.

I read this on Team Camaro-- When the factory makes errors, doesn't that set a precedence that tags were in a bucket, and the possibility exists that they were mis-attached to cars?

Maybe call some guys from Norwood to the stand to testify? Please...

I have the ultimate solution-- Just buy VN or LOS tags and VINS... It's really too easy.

You all should be mad at Chevrolet-- They've let you all down, and dropped the ball big-time on the hobbyst.

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

I wonder that if gm is asked to produce records of a car as ordered by the court as to the originality of a car would they produce it, for only the car in question ???

PJ

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

[ QUOTE ]
Uh, no, what I'm saying is that you have people right now that own cars that are "incorrectly" tagged with no intent to commit fraud. What you guys are basically saying is: "Too bad sucker. Now prepare to lose your arse." This is thus a financial hardship, and what I'm saying is that it will wreck the hobby.


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The people who right now have a fake trim tag are in no different position than before this law came out. Let's say for example that someone who does not know he has a faked car, sells it to someone in Oklahoma and the buyer then decides to pursue the seller through this new law, the seller would not be held liable since he did not "knowingly" sell a car with a fake trim tag. If you are attempting to sell a car with a fake trim tag, either remove it, or get an acceptable tag. If you have a car with a fake trim tag but have no desire to sell the car, just enjoy the car as this law was not written for you.

As far as the lose your arse comment, this happens every day in this hobby unfortunately. Someone buys what they thought is the real thing, only to find out later that they do not have what they thought they bought. Anyone in this situation has lost money at the buy because they paid too much for what they really have. They in fact, may be the victim of fraud themselves. If the person upon finding out he has been taken attempts to sell the car with the fake trim tag to an Oklahoman, they are guilty of the law because they know the trim tag is fake. Nobody wants to be caught holding the bag but just because you were screwed, doesn't make it right (or legal) to "pass the buck".

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

There are those that like to think of all the things wrong with something and why something won't work and there are those that do stuff like pass the Ok tag law and get things done. You can nitpick it all you want with technicalities but your average judge or jury will probably use common sense.

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

"...you have people right now that own cars that are "incorrectly" tagged with no intent to commit fraud. What you guys are basically saying is: "Too bad sucker. Now prepare to lose your arse." This is thus a financial hardship, and what I'm saying is that it will wreck the hobby."


So... someone passes me a counterfeit $100... Even if I find out it is counterfeit, it is OK to pass on, because it would create a financial hardship?

I buy a fake Renoir, Dali whatever... Even if I find out it is a fake, it is OK to sell it as genuine because otherwise it would create a financial hardship?

Don't get me wrong, I have much sympathy for the guy who purchased the car with the fake tag UNKNOWINGLY. But let's lay blame for this right where it belongs. On the guy who swapped the tag to begin with.

Charley has nailed it.

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Too easy...remove the fake tag. Yes it is not worth what it was but that is what happens when you buy a car with a fake tag. Hard to get sued if you sell it without a fake tag.

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Or, stamp "replacement tag" on it.

Just my two cents.

Lynn

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

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What? Have you been drinking tonight? Heavily...?

Charlie-- You can't be serious. Navigate my scenario above (X66), and I'd like your thoughts.



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i agree!!!
what if somebody purchased a car for big dollars.then years later when he went to sell it and then discovered the fake tag?

your going to sit there completely surprised https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/shocked.gif
the exact same look that a person that knew the tag was fake https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/shocked.gif

now,the judge will be able to tell a innocent persons surprised look from a guilty persons surprised look?

now your supposed to let the court decide? just sit there and hope your average judge or jury will probably use common sense?


that worries me.

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

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Too easy...remove the fake tag. Yes it is not worth what it was but that is what happens when you buy a car with a fake tag. Hard to get sued if you sell it without a fake tag.

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how do you do this when you sell your car and had no idea the tag was fake?

only a guilty party would know it was a fake tag...

now the car is sold! now your in court! you lose! now you pay big dollars! up to 3 times?

wow! that would just kill me! more than my house is worth!

explain that!

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

I'm 100% on board with this new legislation and I look forward to working in Pennsylvania to effecutate something similiar.

I may be a lawyer but I'm in this and 100% behind this law to protect other hobbyists, period. The hobby needs protection and thats what I do every chance I get.

Great work guys!!!

Bryan Shook

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

..of course the lawyers like the law..$$$$..(j.k).
I think my points may have been misunderstood, all I was trying to say was good luck trying to nail anyone with this law, there is way too much grey area. no one will benefit from it but the lawyers.
...By the way, the first comment of my paragraph is just meant as a fictional comedic relief, and in no way reflects my true feelings towards any individual either alive or dead, nor any group or faction, or necessarily any one who is was or has been a lawyer or any other meaning that might get me into more trouble than I can talk my way out of.

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

I agree. IMO perhaps the best way to still get a bad guy is actually in civil court but likely only worth it on a big dollar car.

Unless GM produces the actual vehicle build records I do think the Oklahoma law is worth much unless the reproduction of the tags is regulated and recorded by the government at the point of sale, meaning that you and the government both know that the tag is potentially being purchaced to create a reproduction of a specific vehicle type.

Prerequsite: Identify and gain access to all the Fake TT sales records from the producers of these tags. Create a D base where a prospective customer could check the TT with the Government prior to purchase.

Next how to handle the "tag collectors". The material fact of a purchase becomes a perminant record that is associated with the tag and its content. Should someone choose to attach it to a vehicle then simply regulate the sale and transfer of the tag also. Make it illegal to attach it to a vehicle without registration and approval by the BMV.

BMV could then alter the title to state that the vehicle is a "REPRODUCTION" and the vehicle then becomes legal to sell as such.


The down side is if someone chooses to clone an existing car and fake the VIN# tag also. Then there may be two or more of one type of a specific car and establishing which one is the "real car" then could become the issue.

Of course all of the above would be utterly nuts to codify and enforce- IMO it really IS buyer beware. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

Jeez Richard....

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

Moderators please edit the above post regarding the Streisand quote. Not needed or appropriate.

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

Richard...that little closing comment is completely out of line. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

Eric

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

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Richard...that little closing comment is completely out of line. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif

Eric

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And surprisingly inappropriate coming from a retired naval officer?.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif
~ Pete

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

The only people I can see being upset about this law are the people who make a living misrepresenting cars they restore/sell or guys who have a car with a fake trim tag in their garage. I suspect Richard is the latter.

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

Yes we do edit free speech here...Keep politics out of it. Plenty of other sites to talk politics.












I

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

What you said has nothing to do with free speech. It is insulting to members here that happen to be lawyers. By your comments, it's obvious that you didn't read the law concerning the trim tags. It's not about stoppong reproduction parts including trim tags. It's about trying to stop people from losing their money because someone is knowingly selling a car with a fake or swapped trim tag. If you have a problem with that, you may not need to be in this hobby.
James

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

Gentilmen: it has everything to do with free speach-just because I am saying something that certain people don't like doesn't automatically remove my right to say it. What if camaro owners decided they didn't like yenko chevells-are you going muzzle all camaro owners speaking their mind.

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

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Gentilmen: it has everything to do with free speach-just because I am saying something that certain people don't like doesn't automatically remove my right to say it. What if camaro owners decided they didn't like yenko chevells-are you going muzzle all camaro owners speaking their mind.

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The only point I took exception to was, hoping a certain group would get a terminal disease. If you can't see that as being absolutely inappropriate and wrong, then maybe you don't deserve the privilege of posting on this site.

If you consider that free speech then take your act elsewhere. Many people including my family has been stricken with that disease. Move on or be banned!

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e4...nnedSmiley.gif

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

[ QUOTE ]
Gentilmen: it has everything to do with free speach-just because I am saying something that certain people don't like doesn't automatically remove my right to say it. What if camaro owners decided they didn't like yenko chevells-are you going muzzle all camaro owners speaking their mind.

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This isn't a streetcorner for you to spout off on, it's an internet forum that has certain rules and guidelines put in place by the owners and moderators that people are expected to follow if they are going to participate here. "Free speech" isn't for you to decide when you are a guest in someone else's home (i.e. here), and your previous post should clearly show the reason why.

Along those lines...if you can't discern the difference between someone who says they don't like Yenkos/Camaros/whatever, and what you stated in your previous post, then discussing this any further is a waste of time.

(That's sad, really.)

Eric

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

[ QUOTE ]
Gentilmen : it has everything to do with free speach -just because I am saying something that certain people don't like doesn't automatically remove my right to say it. What if camaro owners decided they didn't like yenko chevells -are you going muzzle all camaro owners speaking their mind.

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Normally, you wouldn't make E-4 with spelling like that.
Retired Naval Officer? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

Letz keepe thies threed onn tohipc! Otay?

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

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Letz keepe thies threed onn tohipc! Otay?

[/ QUOTE ]


OOOOOOtay!!!

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

Deleted by poster. Decided a PM was more appropriate.

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

I wish I could have read your response Lynn... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Verne

OOOOOOTAY!!!!!!!

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

[ QUOTE ]

i agree!!!
what if somebody purchased a car for big dollars.then years later when he went to sell it and then discovered the fake tag?

your going to sit there completely surprised https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/shocked.gif
the exact same look that a person that knew the tag was fake https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/shocked.gif

now,the judge will be able to tell a innocent persons surprised look from a guilty persons surprised look?

now your supposed to let the court decide? just sit there and hope your average judge or jury will probably use common sense?


that worries me.

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If you unknowingly sold me a car with fake tags, and then it became known, why would it end up in court? Would you refuse to take the car back, since it was not what you represented?

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

My only problem with this law is,#! buyers remorse lets say someone spends 100k on a z28 and a year later says I cant get my money back out of it so I will sue the seller. I dont think its real, because the intake is dated 2 weeks off or it has replacement rims or there is no putty on the cowl tag rivetts so it must be a fake.Who is to say they can tell what every car most definitly is or was ,I know of no one.Some think they can but thats just it they think they can but can they prove it? I doubt it because most all of them have allready made mistakes! Now I do think this is a good move in the right dirrection but only time will tel!!

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

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My only problem with this law is,#! buyers remorse lets say someone spends 100k on a z28 and a year later says I cant get my money back out of it so I will sue the seller. I dont think its real, because the intake is dated 2 weeks off or it has replacement rims or there is no putty on the cowl tag rivetts so it must be a fake.Who is to say they can tell what every car most definitly is or was ,I know of no one.Some think they can but thats just it they think they can but can they prove it? I doubt it because most all of them have allready made mistakes! Now I do think this is a good move in the right dirrection but only time will tel!!

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What the heck are you talking about. Your scenario has nothing to do with the law as introduced. Try reading it first before commenting geez. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

Actually his idea isnt far fetched. Im sure someone that buys a car for big money and simply made a mistake buying a nicely done clone for big$$ could easily change the tag himself and start a lawsuit. I see it all the time on parts, someone finds a part on ebay for 1/2 of what they just paid and suddenly they want to return the part or all of a sudden they noticed a defect. That trim tag law does give this type of person a little loophole if the buyer is dishonest and simply wants out of his own mistake . Try proving as a seller that the trim tag on a car isnt the one you sold it with.

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

Taking a nice pic of the trim tag on the car before you sell it would probably cover it especially if it was a ebay add that everyone saw.

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

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Taking a nice pic of the trim tag on the car before you sell it would probably cover it especially if it was a ebay add that everyone saw.

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That, and a clear declaration by both parties in the bill of sale acknowledging the state of the car, including the trim tag (and everything else for that matter).

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

[ QUOTE ]
Actually his idea isnt far fetched. Im sure someone that buys a car for big money and simply made a mistake buying a nicely done clone for big$$ could easily change the tag himself and start a lawsuit. I see it all the time on parts, someone finds a part on ebay for 1/2 of what they just paid and suddenly they want to return the part or all of a sudden they noticed a defect. That trim tag law does give this type of person a little loophole if the buyer is dishonest and simply wants out of his own mistake . Try proving as a seller that the trim tag on a car isnt the one you sold it with.

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In that case he would be a criminal, based on this law. I doubt the owner who swapped tags (because he was unhappy with the car), would then report it to the authorities (knowing what he did was unlawful) so that he could get his money back from the previous owner. This thing has been what iffed to death. I think there's a better chance of a ZL1 engine floating up from the bottom of the Connecticut river. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/blush.gif

Re: New TRIM TAG law going into effect in Oklahoma
 

Ok, here it's Nov. 20'th and thanks to Lynn and others hard work, the Oklahoma legislation has been law for a few weeks already.. So what now as there's obviously still tons of tags selling daily on eBay and elsewhere?. If there's any chance of at least getting eBay to stop assisting the problem, should we who care maybe band together in some way and do something to get eBay's attention?. I'm thinking we perhaps target a few specific auctions and in a consistant fashion, report them as illegal items being sold and citing the Oklahoma law?. I just can't help but feel if this things truly gonna' have any bite, the sooner we act, the more chance of it ever being possible?. Anyone else have any other ideas...or care?.

Here's an current example we could start with...even has the Vin tag included!.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/1962-Chev...sspagenameZWDVW

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif
~ Pete