Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

I think that the COPO world gets a little disturbed when they see sleazy dealers, and others, hanging the COPO name on anything and everything just to make a fast buck. GM had several ways of getting cars through the system in the old days and COPO was just one of them. If we work together instead of getting all strung out, perhaps all of these methods will become clear. It's not that many years ago that people thought that I was pulling their legs when talking about our factory 427 Chevelle. It was a little frustrating but they eventually learned a little. Same with the pace cars and others such as Ray Morrison's COPO Chevy II. I bet these guys also had their share of disbelievers. Our GM of Candada microfilm printout shows the 9566AA but doesn't call it COPO as such. Unless you knew the significance of the number, it looked just like another L78 car when looking at all the option codes listed. There is still lots for us to learn.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

[ QUOTE ]
Is it possible to see a picture of the cowl tag for the car in question? Neat, historical car regardless of whether it was ordered via the COPO system or not.
-Jon

[/ QUOTE ]

Show me yours, I'll show you mine.
Nice try Zedder. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Man, you really are a rocket scientist aren't you?

1967Z28 isn't me...it's Jon Mello, you know, one of the CRG guys that you told me I should contact to learn a little bit about '67 Camaros??? I haven't spoken to Jon in months and can assure you, he could certainly teach you a few things.

For what it's worth guys, Pacecarjeff contacted me via email and got a little nasty when I wouldn't buy into his "my car is a factory 427 car just like the Yenkos" story. Don't waste your breath trying to reason with him.

Also, to clear up some misinformation he provided in this thread, the 80055 GM Oshawa account was a Sales Promotion Account, not a "Show car" account. Over the years, this term has been used incorrectly by some at GM Vintage Services - especially in the early days when much of this information was just being figured out.

Pacecarjeff...please do not continue to contact me with your little games, I don't care about your "special car" or your "trim tag collection" https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/bs.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Vintage Vehicle Services was sort of an evolutionary thing. Many years ago GM had a reference office (my descriptive name). You might have an engine out of heaven knows what. You gave them the casting number and/or stamped VIN numbers. They could look up what the engine application was. Then you knew where to start if you needed parts. Larry Davidson did a search on an engine in a '65 Chev SS for us. Turned out to be a late '50s 283 engine. This service was meant primarily for garages and dealerships I would assume. With all the information that was available, guys like us eventually started making requests regarding our cars and it was all free. We got the GM info on our COPO car in about 1988. At that time they didn't have information on the ZP8, ZV6, ZN1 and other Z series codes. Guys like Peter Simpson and others have since seen patterns and figured out what the codes meant. Even the GM guys didn't have all the information but did their best. Helping us was more of a service by guys, like Larry who were interested in cars, than part of their job. Without their interest, the service might not even be available to us today.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

It's a great service...no doubt...I just got my copy from George on a 63 Belair factory 409/425 car.. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Yes, you are right Jon Mello has contacted me directly.
I have sent him a picture of my tag, I am sure he knows who to send it to, he seems like a very reasonable guy.

Seems this guy Mark has had a falling out with just about everyone.
I am surprised he is still allowed to post after he was banned from the site the last time.

I know you don't care Mark, you have already stated that in your PM's to me many times. If you don't care about the research I am trying to do here, then please just don't click on this thread.

As far as the Show car account.
My paperwork is DIRECTLY from General Motors of Canada limited - not some service that is no longer around.
This now cost's around $40, (but when I did it it was only $25 or so) It came from a gentleman named George Zapora.

The only games it seems are you attacking me.
Zedder had asked for pictures and copies of all my documentation. (which he claimed that he already had)
Additionally, He wanted pictures of my trim tag to add to his photo collection.
I told him that I would not add to his photos.

I also informed him that I have been collecting parts and trim tags for many years, and sent him a picture of a few hundred Tags laying on my kitchen table. I also told him of 1 special tag I had from a crashed 1967 Z/28. Thought that would interest him, just made him mad.

I would really like to get away from the bickering.
I am willing to drop the whole thing any ways.

I would be willing to share all my data with anyone who wants it in a non-selfish way.

I just don't really care anymore either.
Besides my electricity just came back on after 6 days.
We have been living on a generator since Hurricane Wilma.

Bye. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

I still would like to know what makes you think the factory installed 427's in Camaro's for Yenko in 67. All I have ever seen is that Yenko did transplants. If indeed all the 67's have a dash on the tag just like your car I would think you can be assured it did not come with a 427. Does anyone have a pic of a 67 tag to post ?

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

I just can't stand liars...here is the email exchange between this guy and me...and by the way, I don't have a trim tag photo collection and do have the GM shippers on all of the Canadian IPC's, so why would I want yours? I offered to compare your tag to the blue car's tag pic that I have that is in non-digital format to help you out. Some thanks I get...frankly, I wish I had never even commented in this thread in the first place, but I honestly didn't think you had an agenda when you posted...

From Jeff...

"I saw you said you had all the paperwork on the Canadian cars.

Can you tell me if all the BB canadian cars had the F41 package, or just
mine.
Can I see the paperwork from those cars - is mine different? #N236970
My car seems to be weird for some reason, and may have very well come
with a 427 installed after all.

Looks like mine was special ordered and we don't know why.
It may have gone through the same clandestine process as the 67 Yenko cars.
My trim tag has some other different stuff,
my rear end is hardened heat treated,
and has a lot of off-road front suspension parts.

Mark,
Not looking to start a fight - just want to document this potentially
significant car.

Jeff Ashen

I own a 68 Z/28 also - so I can't be all bad. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif"

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

My reply...

"Jeff,

I don't know who is feeding you this info or whether you are just wishful
thinking, but you really need to read some of the books and articles written
on '67 Pace Cars. ALL of the Canadian cars were IDENTICAL (big blocks and
small blocks). They were ordered through 80055 which is the GM Oshawa sales
promotion account, not the "show car" account as some GM vintage services
people in the past have mistakenly identified it to be. I've owned numerous
'67 Camaros that were ordered through 80055. All BB IPC's have F41 and all
have identical options. Your car was the second BB car of the 11 and is no
different from the rest.

Some have fleet codes, some do not - that is nothing unusual. In fact, I
have pics of a number of real trim tags that are missing option info that
can be documented via other means. All '67 Z's were 4 speeds, but I have
seen a number of them who have trim tags that do not show the 4 speed
transmission. Frankly, I wouldn't put too much effort in trying to
determine if you car was special...others have researched this topic to
death. Send me a pic of your trim tag and I'll tell you how it differs from
the others that I have pics of.

Mark"

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

His response...

"Seems your very closed minded about this whole thing, so I won't bother
you again.

You would shake in your boots if you knew who was feeding me this stuff.
At this point I have promised to keep their identities confidential.
Very High Profile!!!

There are a few other things that some of your buddies have PM'd about
which also points to VERY special order.
Additionally, the Paperwork that I got from GM,. way before you were
investigating this stuff.
Clearly reads: GM of Canada Show Car Account.
It is not from a vintage service company, but from GM themselves.

Also, I have seen the trim tag from the Blue car -
A member from our group had pictures of it, and knows where the car is.
It is not for sale.
It has a fleet code. does not have to other markings as mine, so the
cars we not Identical at all.
well maybe 20 of them were - mine is different for sure.

Maybe you have read Donna C.'s book, good for you. I have known her
personally for a many years.
I have read every book, and I still own one of the cars too.

There are 2 other things on my tag which are different than all the
other tags.
You should sit back and watch, because you are going to be very
surprised how this turns out.

But since you have looked at only 1 of the cars, that must make you an
Canadian Pace Car expert.
Which ones of the BB cars that have you seen don't have a fleet codes? -
There are just not any others.
maybe it was a mistake, but the evidence is pointing to Special. (I
would like to see your evidence otherwise)

So we can all speculate back and forth, but hard core evidence is going
to prove it.

Do you even know what the process would have been to make a 67 Yenko 427?
You should start there.

I have owned this car for many years, and have 5 classic Chevrolets in
my collection.
I am not selling this ever. - Someone contacted me from GM - Looking and
asking weird stuff about this car.
That's why I started asking questions.
Don't really care about the other 0-1 cars, but to keep everyone
interested, I am including them also.
So good luck,

Send the pictures of the trim tags to the Pace Car Guys or CRG
until you do that, no one will believe you.
Jeff"

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

I didn't respond to his message, so then he sent this last message...
"mark,

Oh yea, you said you have pictures of some trim tags. Pictures???

I HAVE actual trim tags - been collecting them for years.

What to see some weird stuff - I'm your guy.
Lets see what you got - I know I have much more.
I may even have 1 tag from a crashed 67 Z/28 in there.

but only about 20% of these are Camaros"

So, now that you have entertained us all, please go away and bother someone else. Thanks https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

The funniest part is I did send most of that, but he felt compelled to add in sentences that I didn't write.
Maybe makes his storry look better.
You are a weirdo Mark Kane - Get a life, Oh Yea and a Job.
Thanks for posting my phone number, I can tell you are very discrete.
You Jerk.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

I'm happy to forward his messages to anyone who would like to read them and see there was nothing added. Now crawl back in your hole https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

This thread is going down hill quickly.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Guys I removed the phone number...lets keep this thing civil or take it offline...

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Thread went sour back on page 3. Really makes us look bad as a group.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

What was the point of this whole thing anyway?

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

[ QUOTE ]
What was the point of this whole thing anyway?

[/ QUOTE ]
I really can't even remember anymore.https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif
I was just looking for more information about how COPO cars were made.
Since my car was the only one with no fleet code.
Thought it might mean something. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

But after further investigation.
I have the regular F41 anti-sway bar.
My rearend gear is the standard 3:07 Posi, and my 406 block is correct, and dated properly.
I belive that the dash is more than just the blue nose stripe,
I truly think it still means Special something.
However, it meant different things at different times.

The dash is Special something - but no one knows for sure.
I think it reminded the production line guy to look at the paperwork to be sure of the special order.

On 8 of the 67 Yenkos it meant big engines.
On 6 cyl cars it meant power antenna, cup holder, or, maybe Zora Duntov's friend,
Harley Earl's mistress, or something equally weird.

On Pace Cars it likely just meant:
Be careful, and put this heap together better than you did
that last piece of junk we are pushing down the line.

Can't believe the Special paint had to be noted twice on the cowl tag.

so in reality, I fould NOTHING. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

But that is just nothing YET - no reason to stop looking. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Maybe the guy making the tags was drunk and screwed it up https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/blush.gif

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Although I like the drunk idea (which may be the actual reason?) another thought is maybe the special paint was noted twice as in upper/lower and the guy on the tag machine was maybe used to the upper/lower thing? ~ Pete

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

As far as I know, the paint code is always listed 2x - once for top, once again for the bottom. So, the use of two dashes is nothing significant.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

The paint code on the festival Pace cars is 0-1. (special white, w/white top)
The dash is at the end of the 5th option group.
5BY-

It was long believed this was a special added blue stripe.
I don't think so. No reason for 2 paint remarks on the tag.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

So what motor is in the car....the original or not? . And if the original, what suffix is it? . Weren't you asking above if this was maybe a 427 conversion....and what Tach is in the car? ~ Pete

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Jeff, which dash are you refering to??? The one in the 5 group or some other location on the tag. Non festival cars only had two unique code on the tag, the fleet code (for ordering) and the dash in the 5 group, which we speculate may means blue nose stripe.

Non festival cars used the standard paint code designation of C-1, which designated white paint and white conv top( BTW the dash in the paint designation is on every 67 built. Nothing special, no reason to theorize ).

We also know all (festival and non festival)pace cars had a dash in the 5 group, and also had blue nose stripe.
We also know that if you ordered cars equipped identical (interior and exterior) to pace cars without the 5 group dash you received a black nose stripe. A good example was Brad McAdams L78 convertible that was thought to be a pace cars for years because it had a blue nose stripe without the 5group dash. Well when it was being restored, under the blue nose stripe they found the original black stripe(later found the originating dealer painted it to make it identical to a pace car for the customer). To my knowledge (as well as others including the ICC pace car registry)there has never been an example of a white 67 camaro with a blue nose stripe, except those with the 5group dash and of course on a pace car.

Regarding 67 Yenkos, NONE came from the factory with 427/big engines period. As far as the dash code on 67 Yenkos theory, never seen one with, it doubt it signified anything other than paint instructions.

If you are going to throw up these theories, it would be nice to know who is behind them, including facts and support documentation.

Regarding the possibility of your car having a 427 highly unlikely, and if it did it would have been a low horse. Remember no solid lifter was teamed with an auto until 1968 and that was through the COPO process for the 50 Gibb Novas cars.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

that dash at the bottom wouldnt mean for the car to get the pace car stickers would it?

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

I was gone for a bit. To try to answer some of the questions:

On the 67 IPC documentation that I know of, nothing indicates that the IPC's were ordered as COPO's. The 'fleet code' does appear on the paperwork, which shows the cars were ordered thru the Central Office / Fleet & Special Order office as some type of special order. But no COPO number or other COPO indicator appears in the documentation.

There were actually 12 L35 Canadian IPC's. And at least three (including Jeff's) of those cars do not have a fleet code on the tag.

80055 is basically the dealer code for the Oshawa zone office. It does appear on other non-IPC cars. I'm not sure what GM of Canada says 80055 means now, but I recall seeing the definition vary.

All cars were built on the assembly line. There was no alternative off-line assembly process nor the room to do such.

I'm not a 67 Yenko expert, but none came from the factory as a 427. 69 was the first year for that.

I agree with Jeff, the 5 group dash probably just means 'special order - see instructions'. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif Normally seems to refer to paint. Has to be Fisher Body related since Chevy never looked at the tag.

Hope this helps...

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Kurt,

Chevy had to look at the trim tag at the Body bank...

Here is how I understand the activities in the body bank outside of the Fisher door at Chevy:

When A body entered from Fisher to chevy, A worker entered the fisher body number from the cowl tag into the Chevy final assembly computer. This data corresponded to the order number and as specified by the dealer order form. The Chevy final assembly process computer then specified the "parts pick" of the components needed to build the car as ordered. This info also resulted in the printing of the Broadcast Copy essential for body lock and assignment of the VIN number.

Right??

Phil https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

John Z. wrote a great article on the camaro/norwood assembly process which is located on the CRG website.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Ok is it just me or how come no one has ask the obvious "real" question here?...............Just what does PeteLeathersac stand for?..some moniker his wife gave him????? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif, things to make you go HMMMMMMMM https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

I thought it was something he kept his marbles in---

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Phil,
Yes, that is correct. As the car entered the Chevy side, one guy looked at the body # to link the car to the VIN and to the order info and then generate the broadcast sheets.
But otherwise Chevy pretty much ignored the tag. It had no value to them.
[ QUOTE ]
This info also resulted in the printing of the Broadcast Copy essential for body lock and assignment of the VIN number.

[/ QUOTE ]
One clarification: VIN was assigned as the car right as it came to the Chevy side. The linking of the body # and order info didn't generate / affect the VIN assignment.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/Charley.gif Someone post a link to the John Z Norwood process....

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

Go to camaros.org The article is listed under the report section. The First Generation Assembly Process. I tried to paste a link and it did not work. A really comprehensive article that answered
many questions.One question for me was, what was the tape used for that I found under the fender on the passenger side cowl area. Well it was explained in the document: It held the antenna cabling in place, so that the antenna could be easily installed in the fender.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

I don't know about other plants, but Oshawa was all one unit. There was no separate Fisher body side. There were two bodyshops, A and B body. The bodies were scheduled and built then sent to the paint shop. They came back to their respective sides of the plant in the general assembly area. Eventually the bodies met the chassis' at the marriage station. The chassis had also been scheduled to be built and meet the body at the same time. Beyond Fisher on blueprints, there was really no connection with Fisher. As a tool and die maker I worked in the bodyshop, General Assembly, or where ever I was needed. The Doraville plant in Atlanta seemed to of a similar setup.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

What functions did you perform Keith ? Very interesting stuff..I have an Oshawa 63 Belair

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

http://www.camaros.org/assemblyprocess.shtml

Keith,
John discusses the change to an integrated plant a little in the first few paragraphs and has posted about that in the past (on camaros.net and on CRG). From what I know, plant setup depended on when you worked there and what division ran the plant. The divided plant was incredibly inefficient.

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

There's a few posts around here with info from Moparts' dad who worked at the St. Louis plant...Fisher body did from the firewall back, then passed the car through a wall to Chevrolet who took it from there. Pretty wild...

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

OK My 67 Yenko on the trim tag has 4FK - I started asking about the dash. Nobody knows for sure. I know of 3 67's 375 non Yenko cars that don't have the dash. I know of 3 67 Yenko's that have the dash. I also know of 2 that don't.Yenko I think had ordered several 67's 375 cars at one time. This I think were a fleet order, They have the dashs on them that's all it is not a COPO order. COPO is away to order cars not offered under RPO #s in other words not all dealers could get them. I hope this helps. Kim

Re: Would this car be considerd a COPO
 

That my understanding as well.