Re: Judges
 

All 17 Judge ragtops are recorded by PHS. Only one of the 17 is a special-ordered color. I've been told it's like a Camaro Rallye Green. I believe the original owner was a Florida Gators fan. Car now is in CA with the guy who used to own the white one? That car is in AZ now - the same guy who's been buying all the Hemicuda ragtops owns it.

Re: Judges
 

Where are the other 16 that you know of, I have a feeling 2 of them are in Tulsa?

One was delivered in Florida Gold and painted Blue before the customer took delivery and the second is Light Green, the two I've seen.

Edit: After thinking, I'm not sure that the light green one wasn't a hard top but the gold/blue is the real deal.

Re: Judges
 

HI, not sure on yellow one, but the green one belongs to a friend. Ralley green, auto on column car. I'm not big on 71s, I believe there were 2 4spds made, 1 red & 1 gold, both still around. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: Judges
 

Interesting information,I was told about the green car and then I heard rumors about the yellow car.So the green car is the real deal and the yellow car is'nt?

Re: Judges
 

How did you come up with 2 4speed verts made?

Re: Judges
 

This gold one your talking about must be the one in Tulsa that got painted blue, I just got off the phone with the owner and he said it's a loaded 4sp. Power windows to boot.

Re: Judges
 

[ QUOTE ]
Interesting information,I was told about the green car and then I heard rumors about the yellow car.So the green car is the real deal and the yellow car is'nt?

[/ QUOTE ]

All the information on the 17 is listed in Tom DeMauro's GTO book.

Re: Judges
 

HI, Steve correct, Gary in OK, has the gold & the red 4spd(once in Sweden)was sold recently to big collector in Seattle. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: Judges
 

It's an awesome car, even with the color change. Personally I would have never done that, the gold looked much better. It sits just a few miles from here, hasn't seen the light of day in many years now. He's had some recent inquiries to sell, I suggested to him NOT to. I hope he keeps this one, it's much too nice and rare a piece to let go for a few bucks.

Re: Judges
 

I dont know were I've been but it seems that I need to purchase acouple of books.

Re: Judges
 

It seems that every person I've talk to is in the no on Judges.Its nice to have a website like this to ask question about your special car you have or any other car for that fact.I have appreciated all the input I've gotten from the people on this site.Thanks.But of course I probably have more questions so I'll be back.

Re: Judges
 

Why was the 70 Judge 455 so rare?Was it because people did'nt know that it was available?Or was it alot more money?

Re: Judges
 

My thoughts not many people wanted it. The RAIII was a better mtr. I this case raity<desirabilty. Not a real popular engine. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: Judges
 

The first 70 455 Judge I saw was at the GTO Nats.This one was Palladium Silver I ask the guy if it was orginal to the car and he said yes.Well of course I thought he was BS me so thats what spark my interest in doing research on Judges.Later on I found out that there were 14 HT's and 3 Verts made.

Re: Judges
 

You can email John Johnson at [email protected].
I believe he calls it "The Judge Registry" and he has been compiling Judge stats for at least 3 years that *I* know of. (When I first started getting "The Legend from GTOAA).

On a side note, a friend of mine Paul Bourbeau is doing a registry for '70 thru '73 455 GTOs only. (HisandHersGTO@aol).

Mac

Re: Judges
 

Like I said in another post I've heard of John Johnson and his knowledge about Judges I appreciate you giving me his address I might mail him in the future.Even with out any color break down available for the Judge colors it seems that alot of people are interested in finding out this information.Its too bad that PMD did'nt keep more detail records.

Re: Judges
 

I think it was introduced in the middle of the model year for the Judge. That's one reason.

Another is that the RAIII was standard on the Judge. The 455 really is not an improvement.

For years, we didn't know this engine was available on the Judge. It stands to reason why - apparently, no one knew in '70 either!

Re: Judges
 

I suppose thats why cars are considered rare today because of that fact.Whats the difference between the 70 455HO and the 71 455HO?

Re: Judges
 

A 71 455 HO has an aluminum intake, round port heads, essentially a RA IV top end. A 70 455 has iron intake, d port heads, it was basically a big car engine in a GTO. A 71 455 HO is much more desireable than a 70 455.

Re: Judges
 

Jeff

Of course if you’re a factory HP nut, then the 70 455 is hands down the winner. Rated at 370, the 70 455 is right there with RAIV ratings. Only topped by the 69 428 HO at 390.

The 71 455 is a mere 335 which puts it in the category of the garden variety high compression 400. Even a 69 350 HO is rated at 330 HP.

Obviously you can tweak any motor around any of these figures, this just makes for some good table top racing.

Some Figures

Re: Judges
 

Big difference between the two.Even with lower compression I would pick the 71 455HO over the 70.Why did Pontiac call the 70 455 a HO motor?Either you or steved said the 70 455 was out of a big pontiac.Was there any differences with the big car 455 and the 70 455 motor?When the factory put the 455 in the 70 GTO was there any mods done to it to made it differant from the big car 455?

Re: Judges
 

Jeff

455 in any 70 car was basically the same, the cam was 067 in M40 and 068 MT.

So why the less HP than the 69 428 HO that used the same cams?

The head CC’s had to be more than 400 to present a streetable compression ratio and we know the heads were of less quality than say a 48. So what if they had put a 48 or even RAIV head, guess boost the HP 30 to 50 points for the added compression and flow. Then add the biggest cam, RAIV and you would get an unbelievable motor. Guessing 425 to 450 HP?

As much static as Pontiac got from the Chevrolet division about trying knocking them off the top, you think this dream motor would have helped? And don’t forget, the RAV engine was ever so close to a reality.

I must also correct myself, I believe the 63 SD 421 rated 410 HP making it top chief.

Re: Judges
 

[ QUOTE ]

The 71 455 is a mere 335 which puts it in the category of the garden variety high compression 400. Even a 69 350 HO is rated at 330 HP.


[/ QUOTE ]

But Steve, in '71 GM (and others) went to net HP and all HP ratings were quoted very conservatively in order to keep the Feds off their backs.

I JUST read - in a recent issue of one of the 2 Poncho mags - that the '71 455HO was the all-time most powerful Pontiac engine and many feel it is the most desirable.

Don't make me go looking for the article!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif

Mac

(My signature, below, is email from an eBay scammer who tried to sell me a bogus Camaro from London with "free shipping." I sent him a fake Western union transfer receipt and complained to no end when he didn't ship the car! ) https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: Judges
 

You sure better not spout off a story like that and not back it up!!!!! Or they will make a little man that holds a sign saying "Mac Sucks", just like Charley's and Belair's

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif

Yes I know all the HP ratings were adjusted for various reasons, that is why I continually said "rated".

Re: Judges
 

I pick it because of the RAlV top end round port heads ect plus driveablity.Does the 428HO have round port heads?I know the 455HO has lower compression than the 428HO but the 455HO motor is more tammer with tons of torque.

Re: Judges
 

428 used high compression D 72cc like 16 and 48, the heads on the 455HO are 111cc and it seems maybe they used the 1.5 geometry in the rocker area instead of the RAIV 1.65. Many people have proven the D ports can be made to flow as well as the round ports, and you would probably tell little difference at the track. I will go performance over the stigma of some hard to find heads until such time my pocket book is endless.

In contrast a few lucky people have the rarest exotic Pontiac goodies, for example Tom (TJS). A very nice person who has some of the hardest to find factory stuff, and has the means to use it well. I admire that, but he is in different league than me at this time.

So I go for the quickest my buck can buy, I won't waste time chasing 111cc round ports. There is nothing wrong with it, if that's what a person needs.The may actually be a good head to use with a blower set up.

There is just too much horsepower loss by running 111cc on a flat top with 8.1 compression, compared to the same motor with some 72cc would make 11.0. I have heard it estimated that each compression point is worth about 50 HP.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Judges
 

D port heads are more common than round port heads.I agree with you its all about the pocket book.As far as round port heads go there rarer and more popular with the collectors.D port heads are more commnon with the population money wise and like you said they can breathe as good or better than round port heads with alittle work.

Re: Judges
 

I'm not raging on the RAlV I think its an assume motor.I read some were that in stop and go traffic it tended to over heat because of the cam it had is this true?

Re: Judges
 

Dunno, never had a RAIV. I drove a 69 TA one time with a IV for about a block and the only thing I heated was the tires. At the owners request much to my surprise.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif

Re: Judges
 

Does anybody know of this problem with the RAlV over heating in traffic?I also heard that alot of the RAlV owners would change the cam out because it was to radical.The owners would put RAlll cams in for better driving.

Re: Judges
 

It must be nice to have a friend let you drive his car like that.All power to you.

Re: Judges
 

This would be my thought all this saga: The round port heads were superior then, & now. That is why they were on more costly mtr. If you want better heads, I would go w/tech, & buy new alum. heads. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

Re: Judges
 

No RA IV cars I have owned ever over heated. I agree with Eric go aluminum if you were building a car to race. Once all the machine work and parts are purchased you are darn close to spending what you would on new aluminum heads https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: Judges
 

RAIV Bird from western Oklahoma

http://www.empgmc.com/race/ivbirdt.jpg

Full Size

Re: Judges
 

I was told that over heating story years ago I never believed or disbelieved it.I did some reading lastnight on GTO motors from the 68-72.I would pict the 71 455HO motor over all the others.My pocket book would'nt allow it I would have to settle for the D port head motors.

Re: Judges
 

Is the TA a automatic or 4speed?Either way a nice car.

Re: Judges
 

The 69 TA I drove? It was a 4 SP, guy from Muskogee owned it named Dave Abston. He lived next door to my Grandfather at the time in 1984, I saw him at some retail store one day when he had the TA out. I didn't even know he had one, anyway he threw me the keys. He then told me to roast the tires, I was little scared to do that with some one elses car but after a little coaxing I run them up pretty good. Far as I know he may still have the car.

Re: Judges
 

Are all 3 70 455HO Judge verts accounted for?If so does anybody know what color each car is?

Re: Judges
 

I've noticed that the RAlV motor in the TA's are rated at 345hp and the RAlV motor in the GTO is rated at 370???What gives here???

Re: Judges
 

Although I've never seen it, many people talk about factory throttle blocks on the early Birds. And some blame the exhaust.