Re: High 69 Z-28 cross ram prices coming to an end
 

I think it is safe to say that anyone who watched the yellow Z at BJ who has the means to produce such a piece had a light bulb over their head after the auction. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif If not I'd say the timing is pretty incredible. But only those doing it know the answer.

Re: X-ram on eBay
 

Just saw this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...category=36474

Re: X-ram on eBay
 

They are coming out of the woodwork! Get em while they last. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

Re: X-ram on eBay
 

WOW!!! Talk about a market correction..... What was wrong with this original X-ram?? Was it the one side missing the date? Looks like the buyers for this one were election watching.......

(see this thread on page one for the history on this issue)


https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif

Phil

Re: X-ram on eBay
 

I think the missing casting # scared a lot of people.

Re: X-ram on eBay
 

Jeff,

That was still a significant price drop given that the remaining parts were all original dated unmolested GM stuff. 6 months ago these set ups were not on the market at all.

All of the sudden $20+K was the number for an NOS unit, and now that the Reproductions are out we are suddenly back to reality.

Dollar wise - seems almost as bad as a Tech Stock on wall street was in 2000.... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif Somebody made some money here, as I think we would have agreed that 6 months ago $8500 would have been a "steal" for a complete unit.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

Phil

Re: X-ram on eBay
 

You are right Dr. Phil! This was predicted. Why would anybody pay 20-25 thousand for a crossram. Just to much money! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

Re: X-ram on eBay
 

Not really Phil. Several crossram setups were recently only bid up to around $15K which did not meet their reserves and this was before the repo crossram was out. There were a few people willing to pay the $21,000 for a setup(which still seems crazy) but once that group all had crossrams the prices were bound to drop. This recent auction had mismatched carbs and the lower manifold had no casting # so it definitely hurt the value of the deal. But I don't think you'll be seeing too many people paying $20K for a complete setup unless it's truly NOS and mint condition. I think the GM setups will still be going for $12-15K and the repos with the incorrect repo carbs will probably be lucky to get $5K. But that's just my opinion. I wonder if the news of the repo's coming out made some people want a real GM setup before the repos appeared so there would be no confusion and that might have caused the spike in the market. Remember, it's not the price of the part that matters to some people, it's the fact that it's a genuine GM part which will dictate the price.

Re: X-ram on eBay
 

So if a guy was to buy a car with the real x-ram set-up on it and replace it with the repo piece, does that mean that his car is now worth 20K less?. So now he can sell the original for 20K!!!. I would think the car will still fetch a good price, but not 20k less. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/shocked.gif

Re: X-ram on eBay
 

[ QUOTE ]
So if a guy was to buy a car with the real x-ram set-up on it and replace it with the repo piece, does that mean that his car is now worth 20K less?. So now he can sell the original for 20K!!!. I would think the car will still fetch a good price, but not 20k less. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/shocked.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

Where did you come up with those numbers, they make no sense at all? If you took a $20K part off the car and put a $5K part back on, why would it lose $20K in value? And if it really did, why would you waste $5K putting the repo back on it then? Only time will tell what is going to happen with the prices, but I just can't see the crossram market being that big even if the repos sell for $5K or less. I mean, how many guys are really paying $1500 for a pair of NOS GM door sill plates?

Re: X-ram on eBay
 

Jeff, keep mentioning the $1500 sill plates... that was a made up sale on ebay. And not the norm, as it was a one time occurrence and it was bogus transaction. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smirk.gif

Re: X-ram on eBay
 

Not sure about 1500 ones, but i did see a set maybe 2 years ago go for 2800. Crazy but true. Ask Jerry MacNeish what he got for a set of rare 69 Z/28 factory headers.

Re: X-ram on eBay
 

Yes I know. Larry C. from Colorado just started Reproducing Perfect factory 302 header Knock offs from all three years-67, 68, and 69. $1500.00 per pair.

Jeff I respect your opinion-but on the X rams-I stand by my opinion there. I think we all agree they are are down in value.

Now market forces are now in control- because they are now available again. How low they go depends on the quality of the reproductions and how many flood the market, are installed, and then removed for resale.

The next test will be to see if the Knock off's change the value of these X-ram cars at Auction? Scottsdale is not too far off. We will see.

Phil

Re: X-ram on eBay
 

[ QUOTE ]
Remember, it's not the price of the part that matters to some people, it's the fact that it's a genuine GM part which will dictate the price.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree 100%, if the fact people can load yet another repro part onto their car for cheap makes them happy, so be it, but true NOS pieces (not put-together, parts missing, etc. setups like the one in question) will continue to command top buck from the purists... I never did see cross ram setups changing hands by the dozen at 20K+, now OR before the repro stuff was being made, that was one or two guys who fought over a beyond the oridinary, totally perfect and NOS setup. As was stated, once these select few got what they wanted, the prices settled back down... when someone else decides they "have to have" an NOS GM crossram, the price will likely spike again. I personally think it would be easier to sell an NOS GM setup for 20k than it would be to sell a "brand new" totally fake, reproduction setup for 5k. JMO.

Re: X-ram on eBay
 

Agreed Joe, Its the GM/Winters marks that bring out the prices.

Re: X-ram on eBay
 

Joe, there were several setups that sold on Ebay for $20-22K so it wasn't a single occurance.

Phil, I'm not arguing that crossram prices will come down and haven't already come down. I totally agree that they will not stay at $20K and we are already seeing that. But I think they will stay in the $12-15K range for real GM setups and the repos will sell for around $5K IMO.

The crazy thing about some of the NOS parts is that they don't look or fit like the original assembly line parts but people will still pay top dollar to keep their car all GM. That is part of the challenge in restoring a car. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: X-ram on eBay
 

[ QUOTE ]
an NOS unit

[/ QUOTE ]

A complete NOS Crossram set-up is few and far between...IMO there could be a thousand repops on the market but a true NOS complete set-up is going to bring the money....wonder what a complete NOS BE 4 series posi unit would bring and you can't even see that part?? If someone wants the absolute best stuff on the market and want to pay up for it...more power to them...

Re: X-ram on eBay
 

What is a complete NOS setup? Could you ever walk up to the service counter at a GM dealer and give them a single part number for the whole crossram setup, or did the parts guy have to go digging thru the shelves for each individual piece, placing orders for the parts that weren't on the shelf?

Re: X-ram on eBay
 

Yes Mark, there was a single part # for the complete setup. I forget what it is at the moment. It's listed in Wayne Guinn's book and Jerry MacNeish's book.

Crossram Unit # and parts breakdown
 

As per W. Guinn's book <font color="blue"> Camaro Untold Secrets 1967-1969 </font>

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v9...s/PICT0189.jpg

Re: Crossram Unit # and parts breakdown
 

I don't see it,can you enlarge it. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ffSucksToo.gif

New GM Approved Crossram Manifold for sale!!
 

Here they come. The repop actually looks too good if you ask me.... So here is the way to tell the originals from the GM approved repops... if the edges are too sharp, and the detail too good... then its a repop! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

According to the seller it is approved by the General.. As in General Motors that is! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...237094&amp;rd=1

Re: New GM Approved Crossram Manifold for sale!!
 

This is kind of confusing since Jim at Heartbeat City claims to be the only one licensed to reproduce the crossram and now this guy has one too. The manifold sure looks good though.

Re: New GM Approved Crossram Manifold for sale!!
 

Jim made that claim a couple months ago where he stated he would have a complete reproduction intake ready for sale the next week. What happened to that, and why did that marketing claim disappear? He did say that he owned the original tooling did he not? He did claim to be the only one licensed did he not? Perhaps he is proceeding, but at a slower pace than at first thought. In any case, this classicpts ( 28) seller on eBay claims not only to be GM licensed, but states there were no original molds etc. I'd like to hear the rest of that subject as Jim claimed to have them? This seller at least delivered the intake as he claimed he would a couple weeks ago. His ad further states that a complete package will be forthcoming in the new year.

" complete bolt on package including camshaft and lifters will be available just after the 1st of the year if looking to purchase the complete setup"

Very interesting topic if you ask me. I would predict this will bring down the price of originals somewhere near the 12,500.00 market, with the complete repop kits will sell in the 7K range. If other vendors like Heartbeat also obtain licensing, then surely there will be a price war on repop units? I doubt there will be more than one vendor if GM has backed the part with licensing. They get royalties on the rice, and creating more than one vendor is like GM shooting themselves in the foot isn't it?

Time will tell.....

Re: New GM Approved Crossram Manifold for sale!!
 

I am sure that GM Legal will be watching the others if the new seller's claims are true - that he has the only ligit repops that are GM approved....

Phil

Re: New GM Approved Crossram Manifold for sale!!
 

Who really wants them?? The repops cost about the same as a decent paint job. If I had a choice I would spend the money on a decent or better paint job. If somebody can spend 60,000 on a Z/28 resto, they have the bucks to buy an original X-ram setup. I think I have a fairly nice 69 Z/28 but how much do people think these cars are really worth? If an original X-ram is really worth $23,000 than the Z/28 camaro is not worthy of that option. I will instead buy another car and restore it for that money. Remember a Z/28 is NOT a supercar. JMO Sam

Re: New GM Approved Crossram Manifold for sale!!
 

"Remember a Z/28 is NOT a supercar".

The bidders at the last couple of Barriett-Jackson auctions must be quite confused then - cause I think if they are willing to shell out over $100K for a car I would call it one of two ways, either it is a car everyone wants, or the market for these cars (and perhaps others) is currently in "Junk bond" territory (and we all know what happened to those...) Lets see will see what they bring at Scottsdale this year https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

As for the X-ram on E-bay this was posted at the top of the auction:

"The seller ended this listing early because the item is no longer available for sale."

Anyone have the skinny on what happened here??

Phil

Re: New GM Approved Crossram Manifold for sale!!
 

Phil, I would say more money than brains! I understand the guy is trying to re-coop some of his money. I own a nice 1969 Z/28. It is still NOT a supercar. Just a very desirable muscle car. JMO Sam

Re: New GM Approved Crossram Manifold for sale!!
 

Yep, the buyers at BJ are confused - the guy in the yellow jacket definitely was! Plus, you don't know how those high dollar deals shake out afterwards anyway, so I wouldn't use BJ as a true market indicator anymore than I would EBaY.

I remember the COPO Camaro and Chevelle that went across, barely pulling $75k or so = confusion? color? trans? But then they sold a few months later for much more?

BJ is fun to watch, but I leave it at that!

Re: New GM Approved Crossram Manifold for sale!!
 

The car at BJ was questionable in just about every respect. It appeared to be a put together car with mostly repop parts. I also believe that this car may be back at BJ this year. A lot of people got caught up by the sale of that car. In reality it was just smoke and mirrors. I would hope the true enthusiast would not have been taken, as the fool in the Yellow Jacket was. I will tell you this, BJ is very, very entertaining.

Re: New GM Approved Crossram Manifold for sale!!
 

My favourite BJ car was the black COPO Camaro formerly owned by Reggie Jackson that had A/C! That was hillarious!

Re: New GM Approved Crossram Manifold for sale!!
 

Well said Steve!

Re: New GM Approved Crossram Manifold for sale!!
 

Well said Sam.

Re: New GM Approved Crossram Manifold for sale!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
This is kind of confusing since Jim at Heartbeat City claims to be the only one licensed to reproduce the crossram and now this guy has one too. The manifold sure looks good though.

[/ QUOTE ]

Here is the auction from Heartbeat city...will the owner of the real GM license please stand up?? Perhaps more than one? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...;category=34198

Phil

Re: New GM Approved Crossram Manifold for sale!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yep, the buyers at BJ are confused - the guy in the yellow jacket definitely was! Plus, you don't know how those high dollar deals shake out afterwards anyway, so I wouldn't use BJ as a true market indicator anymore than I would EBaY.

I remember the COPO Camaro and Chevelle that went across, barely pulling $75k or so = confusion? color? trans? But then they sold a few months later for much more?

BJ is fun to watch, but I leave it at that!

[/ QUOTE ]


The seller in this auction below reminds all of us of the 110K figure, and then tips the reader off to the reserve amount being "less than Half that" (52.k reserve?) This car may be one of the first for sale with one of the reproduction manifold assembly units installed. Looks like a deal to me especially with the Barriett-Jackson 04 re-run being on the air over on Speed all day https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayIS...p;category=6161

Phil

Re: New GM Approved Crossram Manifold for sale!!
 

Does it still look like a good deal when you look at the engine pad stamping?
http://pic17.picturetrail.com/VOL826...0/78572049.jpg

Re: New GM Approved Crossram Manifold for sale!!
 

Sure it does. If you recall the cross rams that drove the market the last couple of years were FAKES with no part numbers on them at all, and the cars were assembled units- I was there-I looked at them. Furthermore the seller in this auction states the motor was correct and did not state that it was the original. 110K at B-J 52K now.. Good color still sounds like a good deal... Or perhaps, (drum roll) the market has dropped for these cars?? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

Phil

Re: New GM Approved Crossram Manifold for sale!!
 

Oh and to answer the casting date question on the repro crossram manifolds. The guy from Arizona that is selling them has said that they carry correct 69 casting dates. Don't know if you can specify a date or not. don't know about the dating on Heartbeat City's version.

http://www.camaros.net/cgi-bin/forum...c/6/5206.html?

Can't quite read the month but I can see 68 (or 69) in the date on this one (maybe 10/11/68?):

http://i5.ebayimg.com/03/i/03/13/f4/d3_12_b.JPG

From this auction:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=4513799341

Re: New GM Approved Crossram Manifold for sale!!
 

Mark C and Phil, The engine pad pic and the Garnet Red Z on ebay are mine. Although I have learned alot about '69 Camaros in all the years I have been collecting them, I know little to nothing about restamping, broach marks, etc. If I knew and was trying to hide something I wouldn't have posted that picture in the auction. The engine was in the car when I bought it and the previous owner gave me several pictures of the car being restored and that engine pic was one of them. Maybe it is obvious in the pic that it is a restamp? I gave all the casting numbers/dates and that pic to Kurt S. at CRG when I first bought the car sometime ago and he believed it was probably a restamp as well although I think he said the cast number and date and pad stamp were all in an acceptable time line. I didn't restamp it, and dont believe the previous owner did either so I had no way to know for sure either way. Because of no VIN on block and no documentation I did not represent the engine as being original or it to be matching numbers. As Phil stated I used the term "correct" as it is a correctly built (internals, heads, etc) and dated DZ302. I have tried to be honest and upfront about the car and my reserve is about 50% of the value of a documented, matching numbers Z with a original GM crossram. This is a real Z/28 that is nicely restored, nothing more or less. I have not taken any offense by the post, just wanted to state my case!

Re: New GM Approved Crossram Manifold for sale!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
Mark C and Phil, The engine pad pic and the Garnet Red Z on ebay are mine. Although I have learned alot about '69 Camaros in all the years I have been collecting them, I know little to nothing about restamping, broach marks, etc. If I knew and was trying to hide something I wouldn't have posted that picture in the auction. The engine was in the car when I bought it and the previous owner gave me several pictures of the car being restored and that engine pic was one of them. Maybe it is obvious in the pic that it is a restamp? I gave all the casting numbers/dates and that pic to Kurt S. at CRG when I first bought the car sometime ago and he believed it was probably a restamp as well although I think he said the cast number and date and pad stamp were all in an acceptable time line. I didn't restamp it, and dont believe the previous owner did either so I had no way to know for sure either way. Because of no VIN on block and no documentation I did not represent the engine as being original or it to be matching numbers. As Phil stated I used the term "correct" as it is a correctly built (internals, heads, etc) and dated DZ302. I have tried to be honest and upfront about the car and my reserve is about 50% of the value of a documented, matching numbers Z with a original GM crossram. This is a real Z/28 that is nicely restored, nothing more or less. I have not taken any offense by the post, just wanted to state my case!

[/ QUOTE ]

Dana, I'd buy your car after reading this. The only thing I'd quibble with is why it doesn't have a D80 stamp on the tag if it has "factory spoilers." Maybe I missed something. Nice Z.