Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

" and the one thing that was always stressed by other collectors to me, (especially when starting out) was buy the gun..not the story".... I consider the Black RS car the Gun... Paperwork would be nice but not imperative on that car. As I said earlier, each car has its own circumstances. Yes paperwork is great but sometimes the cars speak for themselves. The RS COPO discussed here is schedualed for a restoration where I'm sure there will be many pics taken of it in its current condition and as it is coming apart. Those pics will become part of that cars History and would help answer any questions later on that might be asked by prospective future buyers.. "It is always better to buy a car with paperwork and documents then without..A documented car with unquestionable docs will always bring more money than a similar non-documented car regardless of "owner" history or who is sellling... " I agree but that does not mean the car with no paperwork is not worth having. You can ask KS his opinion but even he has tried to buy the car I am talking about. He might use the no paperwork part to try and get it cheaper but he still wants the car.

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Point taken..Keep in mind though the Yenko post was after research and talking to others that I do repsect, AND it wasn't anything other than relaying a known history....If you look "they" are referenced as the ones that mentioned it appeared to be a rebody..Not me..

"I made a few inquires here and after a few discussions located the car. The current owner has had the car about 1 year, and after talking to him knows the "history" on his car. I have also talked to a few other people that know the car and they feel comfortable that the car was a "firewall back rebody." It is still a bonafide Yenko VIN, just not an original sheetmetal car. "


I merely relayed the info and took the "heat" for telling the facts...Think of this..since I made the info "public" let's say someone goes to buy the car...should they automatically "right it off??" NO..they should read what what said, and allow the car to "tell" them what is the correct answer basedon their own views....then they make their own mind up as to whether to buy...

All I did there was post facts..whether others choose to believe them is another story..Some believe Oswald shot Kennedy...My training at MTU and trying to duplicate the act tells me otherwise...It is up to the individual to figure out which they believe..Same with these cars..Given the situation I'll consider who the owner is, but I won't buy for that reason alone...I'll buy based on the documentation that supports the car..

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

[ QUOTE ]
Point taken..Keep in mind though the Yenko post was after research and talking to others that I do repsect

[/ QUOTE ]

My point exactly. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Yountto
You must believe this LS6 Convertible is authentic as the seller States in his ad,even without Bonafide Documents or paperwork to back it up.
*You are the originator of this topic,possibly to get public opinion on it before bidding?
*You have bid numerous times on it as 427_king?
*It is in your Home State,yet you state you know nothing about it,nor have even made the trek to go see it,and yet still bid on it?
*You knew about this Car in the past,as we all did from Ebay auctions,so it sounds somewhat like you have regrets in wishing you obtained it earlier?

Understand I am asking you sincerely,and not bashing you or this Chevelle in anyway,just trying to understand your position on it.
Rick

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Charley,

I am not saying I wouldn't want to buy it..lol Ity sounds like a neat car..I however wouldn't pay what a similar car WITH paperwork is bringing..I think this is where research comes in..It is only because of the recent 2-3 years and the obscene money being paid on these cars, that people's judgement has gotten clouded on whether a car is validated.. I think if more people stepped back and researched BEFORE buying there would be more of a "normal" market based on tiers of cars..that is 100% factory paperwork validated cars would be top, and subsequent tiers would be cars with less paperwork..this isn't what is really going on here...Any potential COPO (whether validated with factory paperwork or not)is selling at the same price a documented car is..There is a perceived limited amount of cars out there, and guys will pay whatever to own one..What is being forgotten is that these cars are only worth the money to other like minded collectors..Take a poll and see if your co-workers will pay 150k for a 1969 Camaro that has stripes saying "yenko" on them..Most will look stupid at you..Therefore the "value" is only here among other enthusiast..They are not "universally" accepted commodities such as gold, real estate, ect..If the hobby doesn't revert back to stressing factory paperwork over perceived rarity then there will be a lot of hurt feelings down the road..Just my opinion

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Rick,

I will say that Chuck has emailed me offline and he knows more about the car than his post might indicate...This is a not a negative comment and shouldn't be perceived as such..

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

"If the hobby doesn't revert back to stressing factory paperwork over perceived rarity then there will be a lot of hurt feelings down the road..Just my opinion " I can find a plain SS Camaro with tons of paperwork but that doesn't mean I gotta have it. The Rarity has alot to do with it. In my opinion , even more than paperwork. If I could find a twin to this Black RS COPO and it had paperwork I would buy it instead but I don't know of any others that exist. A cool rare car is a cool rare car, even if it has no paperwork. Yountto might not be endorsing the Ebay LS6 but he is a bidder on it so I assume even he would own it even with no paperwork because it is a cool and rare car.

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Simply put FACTORY docs stand the test of time to any buyer any time,heresay and opinions need to be rehashed everytime an undocumented car sells to a new owner.If the new owner has a different circle of friends than the last,the doubt gets harder to swallow.....Buying a car solely based on the owner history is absurd...wealthy and respectable guys make mistakes too...The only thing is they get to bail out of thier mistakes when the undocumented car sits next to 4 documented shiny six figure cars....An undocumented COPO in a showroom of 2 million worth of cars versus the same car from "Cletus" in virginia..whos gonna be ridiculed,and which ones gonna sell first???????

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

"An undocumented COPO in a showroom of 2 million worth of cars versus the same car from "Cletus" in virginia..whos gonna be ridiculed,and which ones gonna sell first???????"... What makes you think Cletus is gonna be ridiculed ? And why are you bidding on a car with no paperwork ?

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

I would buy the car if its real or not for my bid price....

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

It is very true that there are true rarities that will command value whether having factory paperwork or not..The problems arise though when we start equating all cars of a certain type ie..Yenko Camaros, COPO's, etc... A COPO without any other docs shouldn't sell for thesame thing as a factory doced car...but they do..that was the point I was making..Until the hobby realizes that the prices and rationale behind the current prices is based on over specualtion and a "perceived" rarity..they made quite a few COPO's and LS6's..then people will continue to pay too much for certain cars and once the market falls or self corrects there will be a lot of money lost..We can always equate this current "musclecar" market to the stock market of 1998-1999..Way too much specualtion followed by over priced goods, followed by a self correction= lots of $$ lost....

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Hey I know Cletus.. and he's as honest as the day is long. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

This argument could go on forever... as i think Jeff H put it... each situation and each buyer is different. What is essential for one person might not mean squat to the next, and vice versa. Some valid points have been made on both sides of the fence.

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

It's not a "perceived" rarity though.....a COPO is a lot more rare than an LS6. Prices will refect that.

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

That is a matter of personal opinion...I wouldn't take 95% of the COPO's out there for the green LS6 if one is judging rarity..It would be very hard to sell 1 of 10-15 "pilot cars," for 1 of 500 or so COPO's, and I have verifiable factory docs to boot along with what is customary on COPO's (POP, owner history). Especially when the LS6 is considered by many to be the pinacle of factory performance by Chevrolet on a regular production car (more HP, bigger engine, same ET's, etc.) during the "musclecar' era. Whether my description of "rarity" is yours or not can be debated, but we can agree to disagreeon certain cars. I think only time will tell once this current market "self corrects," i'm sure the guys in it making tons of money in 1988-89 never thought it would end either...but it did. There was a time not too long ago (a decade) a COPO was 30k and an LS6 was the same...maybe if we got back to that it would weed out the specualtors and non-enthusiast. The guy that truly appreciates the cars (whether he wants a COPO, LS6, or a 440 sixpack) could again own one and this topic would be pretty much pointless. As I've often said..if I want an investment I'll personally buy real estate or "tradtional" investments (blue chips) as they are more easily liquid and the "masses" will more easily see the "value." It is sadly a topic which will never be completely closed, as it is based on belief.

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

[ QUOTE ]
..Way too much specualtion followed by over priced goods, followed by a self correction= lots of $$ lost....

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue"> Greg, was there really money lost over the long term? No, only for a brief period if we are talking about muscelcars. LS6s, Z/28s, etc lost some ground in the early 90's, then "corrected", but are now higher than they were during the peak. Ferraris like the F40 peaked and tanked and have never recovered, but musclecars have gained overall since the last boom. </font>

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Morris,

I think it is more of an issue because the current boom in musclecars followed the largest boom in traditional investments. The same guys paying 150k for a Yenko Camaro are the same guys 5 years ago dumping tons of money in the market..That tanked and hasn't fully recovered so they are looking for a windfall elsewhere..If the accounting scandals of 2 years ago and other events that surpressed the market wouldn't have happened, we probably would have already seen the turn down already IMO..At what point is it too much,...keep in mind that the people willing to pay 275k for a Chevelle are the same people here..Put these cars onto the open market via auction or outside of a website devoted to it and see what it does..That in my opinion is a truer sense of "market value" If these cars (or really any car) were great investments they would be easily specualted all the time..look historically and what do you see..The market crashes in 1987..musclecar and other "commodites" go up..the market recovers and prices fall..the market tanks and prices on muslcecars go up...when the market rallies and people realize the only ones paying 275k for certain cars are their buddies then they will bail out as well..the musclecar hobby benefited from baby boomers that grew up with them and the prices reflect disposable income..If you want to see if they are true investments wait til the guys in my generation (30's..) are willing to pay 250k for one..I highly doubt we will as a whole..The true test of a solid investment in my mind is one that stands the test of time and market...real estate, art, gold, etc.. It becomes a domino effect when one gets out they all will..the Ferrari F40 was way over specualted as most modern "high speed low drag" cars are..The market prices now reflect the over specualtion..Keep in mind at that time it was still a brand new car...that was governed by all new car laws..they depreciate..

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

I wasn't talking about pilot cars !! Can you imagine what the first pilot COPO Camaro would be worth ?? Was there a pilot for them ?...and we all know rare doesn't necessarily equate to valuable...440 sixpacks huh ...I would love one of those one of these days !

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Greg, I don't think the limited production performance car market will tank like it did before. This time around a lot of people realized how limited the number of surviving cars is and if you want one, you better grab one. There are only so many ZL1's to choose from, same for JL8's, L89's, LS6 convertibles, Yenko's, etc. And if all the documented cars' owners don't want to sell, then the undocumented #'s matching cars will climb to the same price level because that's all you have to choose from. Plain old Z28's and SS350 cars may drop back down as well as SS396 Chevelles because the supply is bigger than the demand.

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

OUCH...........THESE WISDOM TEETH!!!!!!!!!!!

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

[ QUOTE ]
The true test of a solid investment in my mind is one that stands the test of time and market...real estate, art, gold, etc..

[/ QUOTE ]

In my opinion, as myself not being from the baby boomer group, is that these classic muscle cars...supercars in particular are pieces of American art themselves from a time in modern America's history were it seemed (at least from my perspective) these cars were the definition of the time just like different sorts of art work have been (paintings, sculptures, pottery, architecture...etc) defined other periods of history.......the generation that was young (young, being a relative term https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif) when Duesenbergs were new are not the majority of the ones buying them these days (if my math is correct)....just my humble opinion and 1.5 cents worth from one of the "young guys".....PARTY ON! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!not that the hobby has changed!.....just the interested parties!!! all the people for years have wanted the "SS RS " wheels,"tunnel rams, sold parts....... added certain features, eliminated "BADGES" emblems etc......whatever the case may be.........IF IT IS A # 'S THING GOOD! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif 1 ...! THERE IT SHALL BE..........2 HOBBY!!!!!.......there it shall be!!!!!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif 3 ground up ........leftover parts! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gif personnal enjoyment that to shall be!1 https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif but............as they say "don't crush em" restore 'em!!!!!!.........why must a boy,girl,woman, or man be condemmed for enjoying this "hobby"?????????????????????? whatever the car may be! (except foreign!) lol !!! just trying to keep this hobby together!!!!! Many posts have been refered to&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt;&gt; TEAM CHEVELLE.......or a camaro club! or some other aspect...........shelby ,etc. GTO ,MUSTANG, PONTIAC! as long as some heritage is preserved!!!! who cares! those who own know! those who cherish know!those who care understand!............. what is the harm in understanding the differance??????? ENJOY EM .........!! ....every cruise night..SCR show ...............or in in the front of your home!!!!!! HECK IN YOUR MIND( dreams)!!!!!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gif is it not a bond of some sort?....a story to be told????????? why must it seem inferior? I would hate to see how many COPO cars are hidden in fake dresses!!!!!!!!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

[ QUOTE ]
Morris,

I think it is more of an issue because the current boom in musclecars followed the largest boom in traditional investments. The same guys paying 150k for a Yenko Camaro are the same guys 5 years ago dumping tons of money in the market..That tanked and hasn't fully recovered so they are looking for a windfall elsewhere..If the accounting scandals of 2 years ago and other events that surpressed the market wouldn't have happened, we probably would have already seen the turn down already IMO..At what point is it too much,...keep in mind that the people willing to pay 275k for a Chevelle are the same people here..Put these cars onto the open market via auction or outside of a website devoted to it and see what it does..That in my opinion is a truer sense of "market value" If these cars (or really any car) were great investments they would be easily specualted all the time..look historically and what do you see..The market crashes in 1987..musclecar and other "commodites" go up..the market recovers and prices fall..the market tanks and prices on muslcecars go up...when the market rallies and people realize the only ones paying 275k for certain cars are their buddies then they will bail out as well..the musclecar hobby benefited from baby boomers that grew up with them and the prices reflect disposable income..If you want to see if they are true investments wait til the guys in my generation (30's..) are willing to pay 250k for one..I highly doubt we will as a whole..The true test of a solid investment in my mind is one that stands the test of time and market...real estate, art, gold, etc.. It becomes a domino effect when one gets out they all will..the Ferrari F40 was way over specualted as most modern "high speed low drag" cars are..The market prices now reflect the over specualtion..Keep in mind at that time it was still a brand new car...that was governed by all new car laws..they depreciate..

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue"> I relate musclecars to Will Rogers' quote about real estate: "They aint making any no more." </font>

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Good point Morris,

However you really can't equate something out of production, with it remaining to be a tried and true investment. In my opinion the main reason that the cars "resurged" in 2001 or so, was largely a result of a sluggish economy,the internet (websites like this..), having an investment that is tangible, and the baby boomers. When these guys get too old or start dying off (they are in their mid 40's at best)the cars will drop in value, as it will be hard for the "younger" generations (of which I'm an example) to justify paying what the "perceived" value will be. Look at pre-war Fords, model "A" and "T" cars, etc..As the generation that appreciates the respective cars dies off...the prices drop and stay there as the cars were massed produced, are American (as opposed to European (perceived inferior quality)), and are not accepted by non-enthusiast as being worth the money.

When one argues that they are "works of art," one must keep in mind that these cars were mass produced, are currently largely over restored (how many "true" concourse frame offs have you seen lately...drips, runs, no paint or clear on natural metal, etc.). Since they were essentially mass transportation, available to anyone (Yenkos, BM, etc. included)it is going to be hard to justify to future generations future value. Look at "tradtional" investments outside of stocks, bonds, real estate, etc.. Art was traditionally done one off or commissioned for royalty, jewerly same (Faberge...), real estate..well that is a no brainer....can't always add more..a finite number..These are investments that im my opinion will fluctuate to soem degree, but will always be worth money to the masses. Musclecars are a largley American icon of the "baby boomer " generation..when they go so does the perceived value..sure they will still be worth money as theey aren't making them any longer and they have intrinsic value, but the prices will correct to what is considered a more rational level.

These cars are great fun and while they are currently bringing large sums of money do we really think they always will..For the most part people here thumb their noses at younger car enthusiast (the "ricer generation..") Yet aren't they the ones that in 20 years will be in a postion to have the disposable income to buy a car to drive only on weekends (if at all..)??? Who do you guys think you are going to sell your 300k ZL1's and 150K Yenko Camaros and 275k Chevelles to?? Each other.??? When you guys want to cash out, so will the other people specualting on these cars..Therefore they will need to go to a future generation..What do they think about paying 275k for a car that doesn't get driven, has no A/C, needs a gorilla to push in the clutch, handles and rides like a buckboard, etc...Now I'm not knocking the cars (or anyone here for that matter), as obiviously I own them too..I just am not paying obscene amounts of money hoping they hold their value, and trying to justify that they will always be safe investments...

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

At this point will someone pour me a drink!!!

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Greg...don't worry..the kids can buy an LS 6 to drive and keep the ZL1 in the garage !!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif (you knew that was coming)

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

No thanks, I ate lunch yesterday.Going to watch some paint dry now.Encrypted message????????????? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

LOL...yeah..maybe so..especially since most of those ZL1's have to be lowered off the trailers with a winch...might be fun to see if they could actually make it out of the garage under their own power...:) Doubt many owners of a ZL1 (a few exceptions noted..) would spin their car at 6500 RPM's lighting up the rears....after all they don't call them "trailer QUEENS" for nothing...;)

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Belair, I disagree,the younger generation will like what they were brought up on "2fast2furious"...clone yenkos.... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif .....why dont you take up some donations for Chris' cat[in the parts for sale aluminum heads post]..i think he needs an IV and some food...

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif but what the heck was with that cat deal anyway !!!Inside joke or what !

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Ebay Item # 2462248976....Look at the ad chris has in parts for sale below [842 aluminum heads].....Send Chris a donation so he can feed his cat....

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

IMO, Morris is 100% right on the money, followed by Greg. The young guys I talk to will never pay this money for these cars in 15-20 years, even though they will be able to afford them.

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

[ QUOTE ]
When these guys get too old or start dying off (they are in their mid 40's at best) the cars will drop in value

[/ QUOTE ]

Whew!!! I'm glad I'm only 37 and I've got a 15 month son that already knows the difference between Dad's cars. I might of been scared into cashing out. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif

With regard to wheel spinning and getting around under their own power, you really should try to make it to the Reunion:

https://www.yenko.net/attachments/722...20-%200291.jpg

We could stand to take a lesson from our sports car racing brethren in this regard. They race irreplaceable cars (we're talking 1 of 4 type stuff here, much less 1 of 69) all the time and fix em up when they get busted. It's part of the cars' mystique -- if they don't get raced they go DOWN in value because they are no longer in the public eye. Kudos to the Clarys, Pete Simpson, Ken Boje, Market Hassett, Barnhart, Porterfield and others for living the dream!! And for Holub and Hand for lighting the tires up in the cul de sac whenever they've got unexpected house guests.

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Thats what I said 20 years ago Marlin...twenty years ago you could buy a house around here for 40k....400k now.

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

One of four ?

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

You know, Aston Martin DB4 Zagato race cars, Daytona Shelby Coupes, Corvette Gran Sports, Ferrari 250 LMs (see below) that kind of stuff...

https://www.yenko.net/attachments/72225-100-0046_IMG.jpg

Most of those make '71 Cuda convertibles look cheap.

PS Don't let Billigen see this picture... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

[ QUOTE ]
Look at the ad chris has in parts for sale

[/ QUOTE ] https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif No offense Chris but I think the parents of that little kitty made a pass thru Charleys house...looks king of like a Cat-a-poo !!!Charley quit spreading those genes around will you.

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

If your goal is to keep the cars in your family, then it doesn't matter if they are worth $20 million or $20..as their value is irrelevant..However how many guys that are in their mid 20's or early 30's feel that a Yenko camaro is worth 150k?? I would bet if you asked most would rather put the same 150k in a 911 TT or a Ford GT..Whether it is right or not is personal opinion..Look at what the wealthy younger generation (my generartion) buys...it isn't concourse Yenkos, Motion Camaros, or COPO's..Instead it is "Essee's", mostly European sedans, high speed low drag sports cars,or if it is old, it is tricked out and has more electronics than Langley...This is what "we" like and value..not some 40 year old car that you don't drive and have to worry might throw a rod and cut the value by 1/2...How many original cars show up at shows and the owners are under 35??? The point is you guys are the reason these cars are worth so much money...when you guys either cash out and move on or your relatives do, only time will tell if you get your money out..

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

[ QUOTE ]
...This is what "we" like and value..not some 40 year old car that you don't drive and have to worry might throw a rod and cut the value by 1/2...

[/ QUOTE ]

Speak for yourself...but not for THIS 28 year old. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...thumbsdown.gif

And, for arguments sake, I sold a nice driver LS-6 Chevelle WITH paperwork to buy a basket case, no paperwork Yenko Chevelle...

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

Well, I'm not a baby boomer and I'm dumping a ton of money into my JL8 restoration because I really like these old muscle cars. These newer "sports" cars are a dime a dozen and half or them have already been bought and stored in a garage as an investment. Plain old Camaros and Chevelles might drop in value but the top of the line musclecars won't. If Yenkos all dropped to $100K tomorrow, I'm sure there would be a buyer for every single one.

Re: 1970 Ls6 Convertible
 

We have another bidder with 45 minutes to go[gees some guys need ebay bid training]...you guys better stop batting penguins and hunker down ! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif