Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

25 years ago a wrecked car that had the quarters replaced due to an accident was considered wrecked, "junk" or worth significantly less than a car that was unrestored, original and as a result - less desirable.

Perhaps 25 years from now rebody cars will be classified as "original sheetmetal" or "completly reproduced" (on a new body) and then we will be arguing about the originality of the restoration - that is if any thing is left of the body that is original GM at all.

Looks like there will be plenty of 1st gen cars around for a long time. The market will drive the extent of the fakery. If the prices contune to rise on these cars the market will find a way to sell them. The next thing they will try to fake is the body sheetmetal dates!

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

Ed I have to tell you. I hate these rebody threads because everyone seems to be saying the same thing but you have said it best. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/worship.gif

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

Darn hvychev, after a comment like that you make it awfully hard to say anymore. Looks like the only way to go from there is down. Let's look at some questions I would have regarding the blazer accident. It is without a doubt a terrible tragedy that young lady lost her life. I do not want to take away from that. Some things that I would want to know about it though are:

1. Was this gentlemen a certified body technician?
2. Did he also perform any mechanical work needed, and if
so was he cerified in that field also?
3. If he had someone else do any mechanical work were they
certified?
4. In our state when transferring a title on any vehicle a
damage disclosure statement has to be filled out. Was
this done and if so was it accurate?
5. At some point between the length of time it took to
repair the vehicle and the 6 months of ownership past
did the vehicle not come up for a state safety inspection
and if so was the suspension not checked then?
6. It was stated that the owners thought there was something
wrong with the vehicle. Why did they not have it checked?
7. It was stated that the young lady was speeding at the
time of the accident. Was this not also a cause?
8. After another serious accident with apparently a lot of
vehicle damage how was it concluded that the repairs
were at fault? Was it that apparent that there was
pre-existing damage?

Of course in all of this we do not have access to the actual facts, so any and all conclusions we come to would be speculation at best. It would be my guess though that the big issue based on what we were told is the lack of disclosure and the lack of verifiable certification to make the repairs needed. When a lawyer asks you for yourbackground and you have no suspension training and all you can say is "I have fixed a bunch of them." He then gets to say something smart like "Well, you've been awfully lucky up until now haven't you? Just like the one gentlemen previously stated you need to be very careful if you are going to do this kind of work, and have the proper training and skills to do the job.

As to this new camaro unibody, what I just heard said was pedigree. If someone used it to repair a 307 automatic would anyone care? If someone gave you one of those super camaros on "cars in barns" and you could only repair it with a rebody what would you do? If you did rebody it would you look for a good clean original GM camaro or choose a nice new unibody? I am just asking Questions of you and it would be great if some of you would post not what is expected or accepted but your true feelings. Good or bad. Another gentlemen earlier in this post asked if it was really that hard to tell the truth. Let's see. My feelings on the unibody as a part though is that first we need to see if it is as strong as the original and all components fit properly, and that is of course when someone uses one and admits it. Seems to me though it would be hard to use to make a passable fake. All the other repop parts have little deviations from original GM and I am sure the real experts here, which by the way I am not one, could easily point out the things that make it obvious this is not an original part. Titleing and data transfer issues aside as discussed, if safety in our cars is truly an issue isn't there some shells that need way too much metal repair to really be that safe? Would you truly throw away that Zl1, Yenko, COPO, etc. if it were? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif I think this fellow is apparently driving one of those rebody cars, as the rear end seems to have fallen off.

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

Ed, well said, I'm tending to agree with you as well.

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

And isn't this the way all posts should go ! Perfect.Makes sense and no one is bleeding...it's just like the old days ! THAT'S how it should stay....great info. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

Here's one to think about. The factory worker that put those cars together new Were mostly general laborers, NOT cert. mechanics like we have today. Rebulding a 60's car is totally diferent than a wrecked new one of today! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/Charley.gif

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

Ed you just made the same point I made in the beginning
(In our state when transferring a title on any vehicle a
damage disclosure statement has to be filled out. Was
this done and if so was it accurate?)
I start out stated that in Pa when a car has a lot of work to the extent to like this blazer that seem to be close to benign totaled or re-bodied (but I do not know what the real story is)
You must disclose the repairs and have salvage or re- constructed title is that not the same thing?? By having a salvage title tell s who ever buys the car was damage and was repaired
I just got back from a friends shop that does restorations and showed him this thread after reading this Bill said he stop clipping cars five years ago I asked why and he said two words law suites he went on that just because you are certified and have a state licensed and have insurance does not keep a smart attorney taking every thing you own away from you. He reminded me of a friend that had a gas station and had a good business but lost it all one night a guy pull in with a nail in his tire
A 18 old kid that was working pumping gas pull the nail and plugged it The guy leaves the gas station go s to a bar. Four hours later he leaves the bar wasted
. Drives a few blocks blows a red light and slams in to another car broadside killing a little girl The guy had no drivers licensed no insurance did not own a home he had nothing So a smart attorney start investigating the car and finds the tire with a plug in it
To make a long story short this attorney convinces a jury that the plug in the tire could make the car not handle right and that caused the accident
Now did that plug in that tire cause the accident??? Heck no. The gas station owner had insurance but this ended up a multimillion-dollar law suite and it wiped him out
Bill said if a car that he worked on got in an accident and it had nothing to do with what he did it would not stop a good attorney from going after him and all his certifications will not help him
Ed I sorry that I do not agree with you about re-body or clipping May be in Nc things are a little different but up here every body is lawsuit happy
You asked if I had ZL-1 , yenko or what ever and it need to be re-bodied would I throw it away .Ed I did this with a numbers matching 1967 GTX I had YES I would throw it away. Sorry I know no body will agree with me but that is how I feel
Just to let you know I do have a state safety and emission license and ASE master tech

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

I like for things to be civil too. I am really enjoying this sight. Thanks for letting me play. Norm, I think you actually answered you own question. The problem seems to me to be that folks where you live are sue happy, just as you say. Is plugging a tire illegal in your state? We plug tires here in NC too. I do respect your opinion regarding the clipping of cars, however as a mechanic, do you no longer change U joints because the driveshaft may fall out? No longer do brake jobs because the booster may leak and cause the brakes to fail? No longer replace bulbs because it may go out and not illuminate as a brake light or turn signal and cause an accident? How about your body shop friend. Does he no longer replace windshields because the glass may blow out? Certified technicians perform chores everyday that require special skills and training to do. Some times they make mistakes. We are human, and that is why we do carry liability insurance. Agree with them or not some tasks are performed that can have drastic consequences everyday, but due to economics or the needs of the people they are still done. Did you know that when the Saint Louis arch was built the government estimated that 9 men would die in it's construction? Is a arch really worth the lives of 9 men? But it was built anyway, and thankfully no one died during the construction. I still stand by my opinion also. Clipping if done by trained professionals is a safe and acceptable method of repair. Trained technicians work on airplanes, build bridges, erect tall buildings everyday. I wouldn't want a bagboy working on the airplane I was going to ride in, The cook at McDonald's to build my skyscraper, and hopefully for no plumbers to moonlight as McDonald's cooks either. You need the right folks with the right training in the right jobs, and things get done and done well. As to your friend not clipping cars I think it has more to do with economics than anything else. Anyone who does body work knows that you can make a lot more money doing parking lot scrapes and fender benders than large projects and vehicles with particularly heavy damage. Why would you want to get bogged down on a large project that is going to be much more aggrevating to do and less financially rewarding when it is complete? Same way with the rebuilders you say went out of business. I think it has more to do with economics. Since cars are so much more expensive and it takes a lot more damage to total them, it is hard to justify the labor and material investment considering the return when the damage is so great and the air bags are blown out. I am not saying they are not repairable, just that it is not financially viable to do so. The only reason I got involved with this topic anyway was in defense of the gentlemen who is clipping his car. I still say he will have a safer and much more satisfying repair if he clips it than if it were built piece mill. If a welder cannot weld 2 windshield posts, 2 rockers, and a floor pan he doesn't need to be welding, let alone doing all the welding that would be required to do it a piece at a time. Also as to the fellow that is putting the floor and cowl in his car, they did basically the same thing to a 65 Shelby on Dream Car Garage and it turned out really nice, neccesary because in it's younger days it had been raced and wrecked. After it was fixed he ran the daylights out of it. Must have a good welder. Norm, I respect your opinion and hope you respect mine, even though we do disagree. Our opinions are just that, opinions. I am sure there are folks on both sides of the fence. If you don't want to clip cars, then just don't do it. Personally I think if it were that bad of a thing it would be illegal just as making trailers from mobile home axles and tires, and 2 piece truck rims have become. Bottom line, just fix your car however you feel comfortable with, and be up front about it when you decide to sell. They all have some kind of warts you know.

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

I went back and read the original post and I think in all of this we have still missed one point. If the unibody on a camaro was really that bad and say it was a COPO, etc. and did indeed need to be totally replaced, how would you really know? If there were people who were familiar with the car they may tell. The people doing the work may tell. The owner may tell. What if no one tells? If you were using a good clean unibody and welded up the vin stampings which are normally hid from view anyway so that the acid test would not show them, and then you restamped them with the needed data, how could anyone really tell? An ethical issue, yes. But how could you tell? Surely with a little work the data plate could be put back on till you couldn't tell. When it was complete would it not just look like a fresh frame off resto? Does it really matter that much? If it started out as a fake, sure it is a fake. If it started out real, is it still real or is it now a fake, or is it a repair? And even as to the clip we have discussed, couldn't you just put in new rockers and a floor pan and no one would know because now the evidence of the cut is gone? Everyone seems to be perfectly content with installing a zillion new panels. It was all that rust you know. Why make a big deal out of the clip if it is OK to do new inner and outer front fenders, radiator support, hood, quarters, inner quarters, rockers, floor pan, trunk floor, tail panel, trunk lid, Isn't this pretty well rebodying the car? Yet with this avenue I hear no one complain. It is just better now because it has all this fresh new sheet metal. Do we really have our own opinion on this or are we just following the status quo? This is the way it has always been so that is the way it is. Opinions? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

It is all a scam.In New Jesey,there is no technical certification required to take someone's money to fix the mechanicals or the body damage on their car.80% of all the shops in my area have technicians with no credentials whatsoever{I worked in the busness for 10 years and made it to"A" tech without any training except airconditioning certification).All the local government cares about is that the shop has the right paperwork,and that only refers to having the shop in a properly zoned area and having any environmental issues taken care of{spraybooth if you want to paint and stuff like that}.Salvage titled cars can be repaired by any do it yourselfer in his back yard[but he cant charge somebody money for it},and if the state inspector feels the repairs are satisfactory,and no stolen parts were used the car will get a registerable title issued,but it will always bear the "S" to warn any future buyers.If a car isnt totaled by an insurance company,it doenst matter how bad the body damage is after an accident,there will be no official record of it.If the owner has only liabilty insurance on the car,and he wraps it around a tree and makes it into a horseshoe,and his cousin bubba fixes it by chaining it to the same tree and driving it backwards until the frame is straight and then hanging junkyard or stolen panels on the car and spraying shiny paint on it in his backyad,there will be no record of it,and the police dont even have to write an accident report if the owner doesnt want one.So a car that appears "virgin" could actually be the worst wreck of them all.What is really scary is that if such a car were ever in an accident later on,and the shoddy repairs caused a problem,the owner or repairman could just shrug it off and say,they dont know anything about it,and that the repairs must have been made by another owner at some other point in the car's life.
As for clipped cars,or rebodies,I tend to agree that from a restoration standpoint,a rebody might be more corect.If You find a Copo Camaro in a barn,and it is a 100% complete all numbers matching car that hasnt been driven in 30 years,but is rotted to death,would a future admirer of this car get a more accurate image of the car if it had welded on patch panels,and obvious signs of repair work,or would it be more correct if a clean rust free 307 powerd body were used which still wore all the original seamseal,and had all the original body fitment issues of an actual factory car?
I believe I posted once before about the 396 convertable Camaro that was on Ebay a few months ago.This car needed a front subframe,floors,inner and outer rockers,a tail panel,full 1/4's,inner and outer rear wheelhouses,and trunk floor and dropoffs,and was nothing more then a bare body shell and a complete numbers matching engine,but no other driveline parts.There will be no paper trail following tis car,and regardless of if it gets rebodied or gets the Goodmark book thown at it,somewhere down the line,this car will turn up as a pristine low mileage original on some vintage car trader's lot,and top dollar will be paid for it and nobody will be the wiser.It is the nature of the beast.
Here is one to get you all mad.A friend of mine works at BMW,and he fixes cars that are damaged during transport.He claims that hanging quarter panels and even roof skins on brand new cars before they go to the dealers is common place,and that the cars are sold as new and undamaged cars.He showed me one car with over 800 dents in it from a hailstorm while on the boat,and the shop employs a paintless dent removal expert who worked out every single dimple in that car{and it looked like a 2 ton golfball}without putting any paint on it,and the car was on it's way to a happy home after a 1 week delay in the body shop.A few years back another friend who works at a body shop showed me photos of a brenad new minivan that fell off a car carrier,and was brought to his independent shop to be fixed.They got paid $17,000 to replace every piece of sheet metal on this thing except one door frame,and about half of the floor.A new roof and roof structrue was added along with every pice of sheet metal,and a partial unibody,and this thing went on the dealer lot as a brand new vehicle.The same shop had him put a new frame under a pickup truck that was smashed when being used as a Demo,and it too was sold as an unrepaired vehicle with no record of the damage.So maybe that ZL1 camaro was rebodied by the dealer back in 1969?[yeah right}

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

Here is some other trival information on this subject.A car doesnt have to be damaged to be a repair liability.Did you know that doing simple things like adding bolt in frame connectors,traction bars,a strut tower brace or even a fiberglass hood to your car cant leave you open to lawsuits your insurance company dont cover?You may think nothing of buying a late model mustang,adding some frame connectors and a strut tower brace to it and thinking you did the world a favor.If you were to T-bone somebody with such a car and the crumple zones didnt crumple correctly,you could end up being in for a hard luck trip to the courthouse.If you are lucky,the damage will be limited to yourself and your insurance company not wanting to pay for your broken kneecaps,but if you fortifed hot rod were to plow into the side of somebody's car rather then crumple upon impact,you could be looking at loosing everything you own,even despite your million dollar liablity coverage.A good lawyer is going to look for a reason to hang you out to dry.When he sees those bright yellow slapper bars hanging under your springs,and he wants to know what they are for,and you tell him they help give the car more traction,and then he consults with an expert on how if they give a car better traction why dont all cars have them,and the expert tells him because slapper bars can cause the rear axle to lift under very hard breaking and cause the car to not stop straight,guess what he is going to look to pin the accident on.Not the little old lady who blew the light in front of you{his client}but rather on your super modified race car that was modifed in such a manner as to be unsafe for street use.
So with that said,there is a lot of potential liability in the automotive business.

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

[ QUOTE ]
"I went back and read the original post and I think in all of this we have still missed one point. If the unibody on a camaro was really that bad and say it was a COPO, etc. and did indeed need to be totally replaced, how would you really know? If there were people who were familiar with the car they may tell. The people doing the work may tell. The owner may tell. What if no one tells? "


Well the real point may not relate to the ethics of it but rather to the fact that it is illegal and a major felony to remove the VIN from one car to attach it another. Just replacing panels or a roof, or a trunk floor or bent frame rails is considered repairing in the eyes of Uncle Sam and the Federal Criminal Code. Whether it is for altruistic reasons: saving a rare car, or for selfish reasons: to scam the big $$$ out of someone, the perpetrator still is risking a lot: jail time if he doesn't have money and big lawsuits if he does. -NJSteve

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

Ed I am glad that we can agree to disagree I was not coming out here to put you down or pick a fright with you That is no my stile In Philly when it stops snowing by god you better get out and shovel your side walk with in a hour Because we have people going around and when they see a un-shovel walk way they go to the police and make out a report that they fell on your walk way the police go s out and sees that your side walk is not cleaned up and then they will then fine you Then you hear from an attorney that you are being sued. Now the kicker is the person that is suing you never fell on your sidewalk they make shore that no one is around so it s just their word for it https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gifJust look at what happen to McDonalds when some one sued because their coffee was to hot Today we live in a world that is full of nut cases I guess that what Ian saying in today’s society our have to be reel careful My wish would be to turn the clock back to 1960 to a more simpler time https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

[ QUOTE ]
"Just look at what happen to McDonalds when some one sued because their coffee was to hot"

As a result of that lawsuit, now McD's has put the warning on the bottom of the cup so you have to turn it over to see that it says: "Caution Dummy You Just Poured Hot Coffee On Your Genitals" https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

I have been watching this post with a lot of interest as it was my original post on the Yenko, that re-newed the interest in discussing this topic. While my original post wasn't meant to do anything more than tell a story of a real car, and how it was used, I think the "debate" generated by it is good for the hobby.

In this day of high dollar restorations, and ever increasing car prices, one must be especially careful as to what is bought and the "proverance" behind a car. This website (while a great place for information) has "pushed" the prices on certain cars to levels that are more than most houses. The people responsible for the escalation of the values, routinely trade cars amongst themselves and each time the cars' "value" increases while the "history" might become "blurrier." Let's face a reality..show me over the last 2 years the number of "supercars" that have sold outside of this group..I would bet it is less than 5%...In my opinion (again it is an opinion)this has created a "false" market..one that is filled with specualtion. While we hear what cars "sell" for is it truely the amount of actual money that changes hands?? If I sell a car to a fellow collector in actual cash for $75k, but I make a deal with the new owner to "publicize" the price was 100k, doesn't it become a "win win" for both parties??? The new onwer gets a car that has a higher value attached to it, so if they sell it he can fetch more money and the former owner can say he sold a "higher" priced car thereby "increasing" his prominence and "worth" in the hobby. The cars themselves don't change..only the "perceived" value...

This is where the whole "re-body" issue comes into play...I know in new cars and "regular" everyday cars things go on..It is true that replacing every sheetmetal panel on a car is pretty damn close to "re-boding." However in this hobby, what is perceived by the masses as "acceptable," is sheetmetal replacement..not cutting a firewall out and welding in another body shell. Therefore when the topic comes up and a specific car is mentioned it generates controversy.

The people that don't want the topic brought up are the same people that are routinely trading cars and escalating the value. If one car is brought to light, surely others will follow. If this happens then the perceived value of ALL the cars might be questioned. If I own a Yenko with a "pedigree" and there aren't any "issues" then my car might go up..if that "pedigree" is somewhat "murky" then it very well might decrease as a result of the "public" becoming educated. Anytime people get educated they ask questions..with these questions comes a desire to have answers...with the answers comes possbile "de-valuation.." This is something the specualtors and majority of people here can't have..

The main reason why I think some people here found my post controversial wasn't because I told about a particular car. After all it didn't name the current owner, and I researched the car for 2 weeks before even posting the facts as I knew them..It is these "facts" that some here DON'T want mentioned or discussed..According to most I spoke with this particular car was known to be "questionable" to those in the core group of Yenko owners, and if the current owner bought the car with all the info. then why should he be ashamed or embarrassed?? He shouldn't..The problem is becase others don't want "outsiders" questioning THEIR cars,as a result of info being shared... The mentality is if a guys car is discussed then "my" car can be,...and MAYBE "my"car won't stand up to the scrutiny..

I really don't think in the late '80's or really up til the late '90's, anyone would have suspected that a guy in VA (me for instance) AND NOT being in the "core" collector "fraternity" would have been able to know the history of a car residing in the mid-west and be able to track it down..It is because of the internet that the world has gotten really small..The point is what was done on certain cars back in the days before the internet can now be discussed globally..If in the early '90's I wanted a Yenko I more than likely had to get Hemmings, or go to a show and get into the "gang" of guys that owned them..Today I can find one in a different region of the US using the internet, and the "history" of a car can be traced..This means that the info can't be controlled among the "core" group of collectors..So any car that has a history that isn't as "clean" will eventually be found out..This also means that some collectors might have to explain certain things..This means some guys will find the car they bought for 150k, might only be worth 100k..Look at the number of Yenkos and ZL1's that are known..They made 69 1969 ZL1's yet we know of 40 something cars...Is it not unreasonable to think a factory race car would actually be used and abused..thereby since the majority of the cars appear "stock" some might be re-bodies..Do we really think people bought a Yenko as everyday transportation??? No..they were used and abused. Hence if the vast majority are now "stock" appearing then some cars might have "issues."

I actually spoke to the person named in my original post as having "located" the Yenko from Mike. He seemed like a nice guy..I was out of line to mention an event I had heard about from others..(the stamping of an engine) and for that I'm truly sorry..He neither confirmed NOR denied what was done to the Yenko mentioned, only stating it was a "race car" and that the sub-frame was replaced...When he bought the car I think he was doing what he perceived as the right thing based on the condition of the car..does it make it less of a Yenko...not in my book..BUT it does make it less valuable to me than a car with an original shell..I think the "locater" probably told the guy he sold it to what the deal was..but since it is a "tight" community the info might not have been passed to the current owner..Who knows??

The basic question in all of this is..What is a car??? Is it an original dash with VIN, cowl and maybe a steering column as I believe (my opinion) the case here, or is it an original body shell..??? To me it is the latter...That however is a question of personal preference...

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

Hey njsteve,

I agree with you about the legal issues. My question to you and the group is if this was done how would you know this had happened? You would not have anything to go by except the finished product that set before you. Through examination of the car how could you say with certainty this had occured? Heresay doesn't hold up in court, ( or not most of the time anyway) and there would be no physical evidence. How about that new unibody? How can you use that if you can't number it? I don't know how the paper issues would have been handled but in 1974 I worked at an AMC dealership and you could buy a whole unibody from the factory which they referred to as a body in white. The purpose was to replace the structure on a badly damaged car by taking all the mechanicals and transferring them over to the new body. You could get them in colors and were actually available during the current production of the body. They were generally not available after the current body production had stopped. I suppose this could get to be a bit of a touchy thing as no one wants to encourage this nor wants to fall victim to it, but other than fear of prosecution or ones on ethical feelings toward the subject how would you know? I would think that if an original camaro unibody was used and the date codes on the sheetmetal were within the production date of the original car, the unibody was either chemically stripped or sandblasted to remove all old traces of paint and the car then assembled and restored you would not know. I think it is like all other criminal activity. We only know what the ones did that have been caught. The successful ones have gotten away with it and I bet someone is driving one of them right now. Whether we like it or not, the truth is the truth and it is what it is.

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

I have a question we all know that there is a vin number behind the heater box
Is it possible there are more hidden vin numbers that the general public is not aware of
I do seem to remember when my neighbors car was stolen it was years later the state police contacted him that they found some parts of his car on another car I seem to remember something about hidden vins that only law enforcement knows about
I just called my neighbor to ask him how did the police trace the parts form his old car
He said that all the state police would say that every car has many hidden vin numbers that only law enforcement knows about Now I am not saying this to be a fact but how many people that have restored a car looked at every square inch of that body Is it possible??? I really don’t know for shore Is this just something new in the last few years or has this always been there and no body knows or never notice . Food for thought. It just got me to thinking on what Ed said how would some one know if a car was re-body

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

I never looked but was told in the wiper-arm tray of the cowl is also stamped on the pass side, anyone else hear or confirm that.

Bud.

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

Numbers swapping in an issue with all old cars.In the northest,there are some odd laws that would lead somebody to believe that certain cars could never be titled.The loosening of some of these laws is giving car resorers more options then they had before.In states like New York,if a car changes hands and is never regiatered{like a race car would},there is no transfer of ownership,and no title.If the car changed hands multiple times there would be no paper trail to find it.Since many hot rodders were afraid of trying to do a title search on a shady car,they found it easier just to swap the numbers with one of the zillions of base model rust buckets that are available for the cost of a 6 pack of beer.Over the last few years,the laws have loosened up,and you an go to DMV with a pencil trace of the VIN and chances are they will give you a hassle free title or the contact to the last known legal owner of the car so that you can arrange for them to assist you.I live in Jersey,and until this day,they have towns that release impounded auction cars with junk titles.The town will tell you that the car is listed as crushed by the state,and that it can never be titled ever again.Well since most of these cars are perfectly fine cars that the owners didnt want to pay the $100 a day storage fees on{especially since some cars have to stay in the pound for over a month until a case goes to court},there are plenty of base model cars in the junkyards that were bought bulk bid from local impound auctions.A local junkyard old me I can get a title for one of these cars using conventional title search means,so there may be some hope,but to some 18 year old kid who bought one as a parts donor for his 1979 camaro hot rod that is rusted beyond repair,all he is looking at is that he can swap his mag wheels and cherry bomb mufflers onto it in about 2 hours and be driving a more solid car then his current one if he simply springs for a box of window ribbon and some pop rivets.I think my own personal car my suffer that affliction.I know my car was first built as a race car back in the early 80's,and that it was bought from a local impound yard as a junk car,and yet it sports a perfectly clean title and the VIN tag sits a little crooked under the dash.Since my car started life as a 1973 pontiac esprit with a 350 2 barrel and green paint,and is now a decked out race car with a bigblock chevy and mostly fiberglass body panels,I dont think anybody really cares what the title on my car says as long whoever holds it can legally lay claim to the car,and register it with plates if they choose.I have no proof of this numbers issue on my car,but it sure looks a little suspect.When I bought my car the front subframe was bent from too many wheelstands,so I had to replace it,and the firewall has pretty much been cut apart for every hop up mod under the sun,and the original drive line went into the metal shredder about 20 years ago,so there isnt much left on the car with numbers on it aside from a tin plate on the dash.Who is to know and who really cares.I have owned the car for almost 15 years,and anybody who would buy it would buy it because it is my race car not because it is a real 1973 firebird esprirt.In the case of somebody paying 100 times the base model value because the numbers came back to it being a real live supercar,that is a different story.I hate the way the goventment ran many of it's motor vehicle operations,and therefore I dont really shun guys who would swap a few numbers just to get some paperwork on their car instead of dealing with beurocracy,but I would never be able to bring myself to swap numbers from a wrecked supercar onto a clean base model as a way to defraud somebdy into believing that what they were really buying was a clean original supercar.I do have some morals.

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

Heres a rebody story that might make you laugh a bit{well actually it never happened but almost did}.My father drives a super clean 1983 Old's 98 that he reuses to part with.When New Jersey came out with then new IM 240 inspection program,and the propoganda around it claimed that big brother could take your car away from you at the end of the inspection line if it failed t meet these super stringent new standards after 3 attempts and that high tech tracking systems would eliminate the bogus testing that was going on in the past.My father was not too happy about that.I read the paper and it said that car made before 1980 werent subject to the testing.I just smirked and told him we needed to start combing the papers for a 1979 Old's 98 4 door that we could swap numbers with.He didnt like what i had to say,but he knew it was one way out of beating them at their own game.Luckily for him,the test wasnt as strict as everybody first believed,and his car squeaked through.If what the propoganda said was true,I figure i would have been getting a call inquiring about how to make those funny little starr shaped rivets about 2 months after his inspection expired;)

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

As to Norm's question about the secret numbers, I think the numbers under the cowl and behind the heater box are the secret numbers. If not this is the best kept 40 year old secret I know of. It would have been someone's job at the assembly plant to stamp them for starters, and I haven't ever heard of anyone coming forward stating their job was "secret number stamper". Secondly all police officers would have to have access and surely someone would have leaked the info by now. We know where these are because this is our mark of interest. Anyone here know where they are on a 65 Falcon, or a 69 GTX, or a 95 Taurus? I don't, only the vin plate on the dash, but they are there somewhere. Has anyone ever checked your vin data? Not mine. I think if you stole a car 30 miles from your house and put different dash number on it, you stand a pretty good chance of getting caught. If you stole one on the west coast and took it to the east coast and changed just the dash vin, do you think you would get caught? Something would have to arouse suspicion to the car first before anyone would give it a second thought. So that Yenko you just stole becomes a base camaro. You tell everyone you just built a clone. Maybe change a thing or two to make it questionable. Everyone knows you can't afford a real Yenko anyway. No way it's real. You get to drive and enjoy it from now on, and it was FREE. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

The real issue with altered cars is the fact that there is no federal motor vehicle laws. Some states issue a title, others don't. Take a salvage title car to a state with no title for a year, then sell it elsewhere as a clean car. Some states use 2 license plates, others use 1. Once a car has a salvage or repair title, it should stay with the car forever and that's why we need federal control, not state control. And inspections/emissions should be the same in every state as well.

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

We talk about all of this stuff going on,but my neightbor is into building early iron,and some of the stuff is just whacky.They build cars with one year body,and another year frame,the body may be so rusted that it doesnt have numbers on it,but the frame does.Other guys use a totally rusted body with an aftermarkt frame and late model engine.How do you keep tabs on cars that are 70 years old and havent been on the road in 50 years?He just got a title for his 32 ford using a pencil trace of some numbers he found on the frame,which I think isnt the one that came with the body on the car,and the last titled owner was back in 1953,and has been dead for at least 30 years.The frame was found in a barn,the body was upside down in a corn field 1000 miles away with chickens growing in it,and not one mechanical part was anywhere to be found.It is now a straight axle gasser style hot rod with a bigblock chevy,zoomie pipes,4 speed,4" chop,and 14" wide prostreet type rubber under it.The orginal frame has been boxed and butchered,the body needed a cowl,floors,rockers,and a ton of patchwork.So what will people be doing with 69 camaros in the year 2050?

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

Don't you think all these numbers were originally just to help trace theft, identify parts, and help track batches in case of warranty claims and recalls? We are the ones that have made them so much more. Seems to me to be more of a GM issue than anything else. From what I understand a Boss 302 is identified as such in the vin number. I know that the vin on an amx or javelin tells you if it were an amx or javelin, what engine, carbureation, transission, column, or floor console, all on the vin. No guessing here. With a 69 camaro the vin tells you if it is a 6 or 8 cylinder. Early cars had little info on the infamous data tag and since they can be removed you have to wonder if it has been switched. Without a paper trail you have to be a detective and piece together enough data to decide if what you see is real or not. Block changes on a Boss seem to be a normal occurance as there was some sort of problem with them and the boss folks don't seem to care - to them big deal. A Z block is just a 350 block with 4 bolt mains and are very common. Rotating assembly different, yes but the block is the same. You have an original Z block bored out to the outer limits of hell and have custom pistons made or sleeves installed and you are good to go. Just don't deck that block. It doesn't matter if the cylinders are too thin, it overheats, has possible poor head seal because the block isn't true. It still has the numbers on it. Replace that block with a good correct block and although you now have a much better engine that is again identical except for those numbers and you have really screwed up. Get the right block casting and casting date, have it restamped and you are scum of the earth. Same applies to these unibodies - patch up a rusty piece of sh-- with a Goodmark catalog and everyone seems to be just so impressed with that list of new sheetmetal you had instlled. Clip it or install a whole really clean unibody and again you have commited the ultimate sin. Never mind now the car is a much better and safer car, those little numbers aren't there. But you know what in all of this really doesn't make sense to me. A couple of years ago Reggie Jackson took a camaro to Barrett-Jackson. A ZL1, COPO, I don't remember which. It had the wrong block in it and he said so up front. Said he did have the original block but it was damaged beyond repair. I guess it was there to help with the documentation. It bid to $277,000 if I remember right and he turned it down. Seems to me we are the one's screwed up. Are we doing this for the cars, the money, an investment, all the above? Or again are we just following the status quo. Doing what we have been told to do and doing so without question? Just as was just said. All these street rods are built out of a stew of parts, all years, all models, aftermarket, whatever to build what the builder sees fit. The cars are built, titled, sold, driven, and by grannies bring big money. If anyone can explain away all this I for one would like to hear it.

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

I think the real reason we are all doing this is to try to create our own little time machines. I'd love to be able to get in my time machine, walk back into a 1969 or 1970 Chevy or Dodge dealer and order a car, show up again on delivery day and store it away til today. Sounds like a Stephen King novel. In the absense of the time machine, the only way we can "go back" is to recreate the past by restoring the cars to the way they came from the factory. On Mopars it's a little easier for documentation purposes: the VIN says it all: hemi or 440-6, etc. On Chevy's it only says 6 or 8 cylinder, hence the problem or fakes, clones, rebodies. That is why the issue of provenance is so important; you are establishing the integrity and authenticity of the car and its unbroken chain of ownership back to its original delivery. Without a documentable provenance, all you have is just another V8 Camaro. So when the provenance is diluted or destroyed by a rebody or a fake, or 2 cars showing up with the same VIN after the original was destroyed in 1969, then you only make the genuine cars worth so much more in terms of monetary and esoteric value.

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

I need to chime in and ask a question that has been on mind for many years,
Let’s see if I can word this right without causing too many problems,

Doesn’t it bother you that most of these cars are being redone in garages across the world by guys that made a trip down to Tool Town and picked up a wire feed and few pneumatic chisels and are rebuilding some car in there garage??????????????

I mean really! Here are people that have never been to any kind of school on welding etc….Doesn’t that worry you at all???

Did the welds really penetrate??? Or did you overheat the weld???

Or my favorite saying I must have heard a thousand times in different shops.
“Good enough for this Guy”. Or “I’ll let the next Guy worry about it”

I am not going to get into clipping of cars that has been covered very well so far, but I will add one thing that has not been covered, yes there was a union guy that may have not been the sharpest tool in the shed putting these cars together when new, but in his defense they were welded with nice equipment that was “calibrated” to weld properly the two metals at the time, they also were crash tested to ensure integrity of the components, and this worker was trained to use the equipment properly.

I spent enough time years ago around the dealers and body shops to confirm all that has been said in this thread, I have not been in any shops lately but I would assume they have cleaned up tremendously due the liability world we live in now.

One more page in “As the Thread Turns”.

Bud.

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

Well said budnate, and a very good point. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: rebodied with out salvage a title
 

What is really scary is that even when a car is totaled in New Jersey and is clipped at a professional shop,and instpected by the state inspector,there is no way to verify if the welding was done correctly.I weld race car chassis and have never had an official course.My welds get certified to protect sombody in a 175mph crash and are done with a Home Depot mig welder.
Once a car goes up for inspection after a rebuild,the welded repairs are already ground,seamsealed and painted.If the entire thing were on the verge of falling apart nobody would even know,and this could be the case even with many of the very reputable body shops.Around my area,it is still common place for car restorers to braze 1/4 panels on with a torch,and to make structural repairs to a car by heating up and bending the frame of the car with a torch.Once brushed off and painted nobody will ever be able to tell the differance,but will the metal ever be the same?
As for backyard restorations,you will be lucky to find somebody who actually puts the effort out to go buy a welder and cutting tools.Half of the cars I see at cruise nights have floorpans,firewalls and fender aprons that were repaired with everything from pop rivets to adhesive glues.The scary part is that many of these cars were daily drivers with floors that had no more sturcture to them then was provided by the 3 layers of floor mats that covered the rust holes,and there are cheap skates out there who would rather remove one rear shock from their rotted out camaro then replace the punched out shock mount.That is how bad the state of affairs is on old cars in the northeast.So in reality anything done with a welder is better then the bailing wire and pop rivet fixes that are employed on the majority of vintage cars of true driver quality.
The fact of the matter is that clean old original cars are almost non existant in unrestored form.If you took a brand new Camaro back in 1969 and put it in the average notheast garage the day you bought it,after 35 years,it would have rot on it even if it never touched the road.Most base models were driven daily and either have major accident damage,or severe rust,or both.Most supercars were either burned for insurance money back in the 70's when gas prices got too high,or turned into race cars that were eventually cut up and tubbed and junked when their race car build became outdated.Very few people had the forthsight to stash these cars away,and most of the ones that turn up have some kind of tale of woe behind them like the owner died in 1972 or in combat or some other reason why a perfectly good bigblock muscle car wasnt being driven and beaten to death over the last 30 years.
Most supercars turn up in former race car condition{no useable sheetmetal from the firewall back},or as abandoned wrecks that were wrapped around a pole back in 1976 and the owner left under a tree in his back yard with the good intentions of fixing someday until the rust gremelins ate what was left of the car from the inside out.We now have to consider restoring these relics or just letting them vanish off the face of the earth.One side of the hobby feels that by ridding the world of all the rust buckets and cut up bigblock camaros the market will be higher for the remaining few.The other side of the market feels that if it can be saved it shoud be.These are two very different opinions on a the very core subject of our hobby.Either way,people should admire other people's cars for what they are,and limit their actions to their own vehicles.If you dont like the way a car was restored,then dont buy it.These are only cars,and the only people willing to pay 6 figure sums for them are people who have nothing better to do with 6 figures.If somebody wants to spend their retirement check on a pieced together heap with bogus parts,then that is their opinion.I know enough about the muscle car market to know what want and how much I feel it is worth and that is what I concern myself with.
Another thing to remember is that our beloved supercars were some of the most poorly built vehicles on the history of automobiles.I hate to say that,but it is true.In a discussion the other day with a fellow racer,I pondered at the fact that I started my car hobby back in 1988,and was into 1st and 2nd gen camaros at the time.My first camaro was a 1973 and I bought it in 1989.It had 2 1/4's put on it,the trunk floor was completley missing,the door jams had holes in them as did the lower door frame and the lower front fenders.While on a high school budget,I looked at many camaros,and all the affordable base model 1st gens had major rot issues,as did all the mid 2nd gens such as the many 75 and 76 camaros I knew of at that time.Almost all of the 50's iron I have even seen since the late 80's has been more solid then those camaros.Today I would have to search high and low for a 1984 camaro that even had a litle bit of actual rust holes in it,yet in 1989 I couldnt find 1 20 year old camaro even a base model 6 banger for a reasonable price that didnt have rust holes the size of footballs all over it.We have to remember what it is we are working with here.