Re: 70 LS6
 

Look back a year ago and I would say a Copo Camaro was bringing almost double what a LS6 Chevelle was. There are quite a few LS6 Cars around. There now seems to be more Copos found every day and they are not as Mysterious as they used to be so things might be equaling out a little bit but a LS6 is still a car that you could just order at your Chevy dealer. You didn't need the secret handshake and know the Copo Code to order one like you did a Copo. I think I bought my first Copo back in 89 or 90 from a Crook for 45K and it needed Restoring but I just had to have one. I sold my Frame off LS6 for 43K just 6 Years ago to put my Pool and Spa in. In my mind a Copo Camaro will always be worth more than a LS6. I think I sold my Black LS6 maybe 2 years ago for about 32K.....Just Rambling........Carry on with your arguement..

Re: 70 LS6
 

Not an argument at all Charley..just a good discussion. I think most guys are missing the point about buildsheets. Sure they can and have been faked..Sure they can be incomplete and missing portions. However if you do your homework and look at enough original sheets a faked sheet can be easily spotted. Case in point..the buildsheet for "Red Alert"...Nothing more than a copy made to approximate how one would look. With what is currently available on COPO's as a general rule..a POP or a window sticker..these items are very easily faked...Therefore why would you pay a premimum for a car that just has these items? Why should a suspected COPO (with only a POP or window sticker)be worth the same as a LS6 with a legit non-faked buildsheet. Look at it this way...the paper buildsheets were made on is special..has a distinct "look" and the codes and font are special as well..Since (please correct me if I'm mistaken here..) nobody has unearthed blank factory buildsheet copies and created a sheet that is intinguishable from an original in both appearance and weathering why should we pay more for a suspected car with a POP that all the items, are and have been available for at least 15 years??? POP's were being sold 15 years ago that are both correct and indistinguishable from an original, add to that age or "weathering" and Whala..a COPO. Since these cars rarely have any other solid factory documentation IMO they shouldn't be worth as much as a Z28 or SS396 Camaro in similar condition. IMO it equates to a "sum of the parts." I'll even go and say that the same applies to LS6's that aren't with a buildsheet as they then would be suspected to the same POP and window sticker problems as the COPO's. Of course cars that have "alternate" docs (invoices, order forms, etc. need to be looked at on a case by case basis)..IMO one would be foolish with the fraud and desception going on today to buy ANY popular musclecar without solid factory docs ( a few exceptions noted).

Re: 70 LS6
 

Good point Charley. IMO to compare a 69 COPO 427 camaro to an RPO 70 SS Chevelle is really not a comparison at all. An LS6 could be ordered anywhere, at even the most mundane, non high performance dealer. No secrets, nothing difficult about it, the dealer (or customer) didn't have to know anything more than how to order a regular production option and check off the option box. Well through the 70s and through much of the 80s people were STILL not sure what a COPO 427 even was... many people OWNED them and didnt realize how special or how rare their cars were. To this very day these cars hold a mystique about them to many people. Don't get me wrong, I like 70 Chevelles as much as the next guy, but a COPO (Camaro OR Chevelle) is in a different realm of rarity all together. I agree, documentation helps ANY car, and the more the better, but i also believe that many cars can be determined to be legitimate beyond a shadow of a doubt(SS or COPO) without such things as build sheets or protect-o-plates. i don't know if i'd trust a build sheet or protectoplate as "ironclad" documentation on anything in this day in age anyhow.

Re: 70 LS6
 

[ QUOTE ]
Since these cars rarely have any other solid factory documentation IMO they shouldn't be worth as much as a Z28 or SS396 Camaro in similar condition.

[/ QUOTE ]

So a Z/28, an SS396, and a COPO should all be worth the same money if you don't have a buildsheet for any of them? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif I think alot of SS and Z owners would be very willing to make an "even-steven" swap. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: 70 LS6
 

While COPO's were certainly not the dealer stocked car as a general rule I think the generally accepted number of 900-1000 shows that they were more known about than people would like to believe. Keep in mind the LS6 production was only 4475 so the COPO even as "mysterious" as I'm sure it was still sold roughly 25% of LS6 production. I agree nothing is "ironclad" but if I'm forking out 100k for a car..I'll take as much legit factory paperwork as possible...What is your perception of LS6 converts...roughly (in my opinion at least) 50 cars made..Highest advertised horsepower of the musclecar era in a convert no less...

Re: 70 LS6
 

Joe sorry for the typo...they SHOULD be worth only as much as a SS396 (again I was refering to a L78) or a Z28 with the same docs..I'm sorry but I've owned quite a few Camaros (I'm actually more of a Camaro person then a Chevelle person anyway) everything from Z's to L78 and a couple of L89's, along with what I think MIGHT be a COPO, but as far as protecting my investment..I'll take the LS6 anyday..usually better overall factory paperwork and IMO therefore a greater chance or being legit all things (matching numbers, condition, etc.) being equal...

Re: 70 LS6
 

Its a great arguement but it seems to me that it comes down to the flavor of the month. When the excitement starts to wane everyone rushes to the latest greatest. I believe the RAIV Judges would be a good example. A year ago they were regularly under 50k. Now a good one in a good color is hard to find and considerably higher. To go one step further a RAIV Judge convert would likely bring more right now than an LS6 convert. In my opinion some of these values are way out of balance. Phil

Re: 70 LS6
 

Did you take the Yale out for a spin yet?

I believe that an L78 Camaro Convertible, with a build sheet should be worth more than an LS6 convertible without one and a COPO with a protecto plate.

Anyone want to trade two for one https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: 70 LS6
 

Been too busy catching up on work, tearing apart a Pontiac and trying to go on Vacation next week to figure out how to start the Yale. I have to figure out how the oiling system works on it before I screw it up. It has a hand pump that does something, just not sure what.

Re: 70 LS6
 

Charley, have you found out anything about the history of the Yale Motorcycles? I found these on Ebay and thought you might be interested in looking at it. The first one has ended.
James

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=14059

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...category=14059

Re: 70 LS6
 

Sounds like the pump could be a pre-lubber.

Re: 70 LS6
 

Charley ,post pics of the thing will you ...

Re: 70 LS6
 

I posted some on the Barrett-Jackson thread

Re: 70 LS6
 

There are some Camaros that have been found with a buildsheet. So you're saying that a Z28 with a buildsheet should be worth more than a Z28 with P-O-P or window sticker? I think that most people look at documentation from the point of view that it can all be faked, and if you're not comfortable with what you're looking at, walk away. Look at the P-O-P Charley posted from that L89 Camaro at BJ. But to answer your first question, if you offered me an LS6 with a buildsheet and a COPO with a P-O-P or window sticker and both had matching #'s engines/transmissions, I would take the COPO because I'm a Camaro nut. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif The difference in the type of documentation wouldn't be a factor.

Re: 70 LS6
 

While I also prefer a Camaro to a chevelle... I would take the LS6 if both cars were in equal condition BASED on the documentation. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif Also "YES" I would take a Z with a broadcast sheet over a Z without one but a POP anyday of the week...

Re: 70 LS6
 

Simply said ....1000["secret" handshake availabilty] vs 25[available to anyone at any mundane dealership] produced,425 vs 450 Horsepower, hardtop vs convertible....If an ls6 doesnt have a buildsheet its considered a fake but a copo with only an "original" engine,owner history,or title is documented???? Ask any collector if hed give up his copo or his ls6 ragtop[that is if he was lucky enough to have one in his collection]..he may prefer copos personally but if we are talking $$$ and rarity,aint no comparison,period .........if 1000 production constitutes a secret,it would seem the ls6 ragtop buyers had a bigger secret..

Re: 70 LS6
 

I'd rather take a COPO with factory and/or dealership docs. My 9561 has the following docs, each showing the major option codes:

- Original hand written dealer invoice
- Car Shipper
- Car Invoice Mail Copy

Seems like Gary Holub has used this criteria to great effect...

Re: 70 LS6
 

[ QUOTE ]
if 1000 production constitutes a secret,it would seem the ls6 ragtop buyers had a bigger secret..

[/ QUOTE ]

"The secret" to the LS6 ragtop is that a supercar buyer interested in speed/performance usually did not want a more expensive, heavier convertible. It wasn't a secret to order one, it was just that not many folks wanted it. Same reason they only made a handful of Hemi convertibles too.

Re: 70 LS6
 

Its not at all a question of which car someone would rather have,there are always personal preferences ..Higher market value and rarity of the Ls6 convertible over the copo camaro isnt a personal opinion however, its a fact...There arent enough Ls6 convertible owners on this site to counter all the copo owners opinions,which tells a little about rarity by itself..I personally like all musclecars,but production #s and sale prices are well documented on each of these cars,and there is no comparison on either topic.......

Re: 70 LS6
 

I don't think there is any argument about LS6 convertible rarity or desirability...they are much, much rarer than a LS6 coupe... but the original comparison of value was between an LS6 hardtop VS a COPO Camaro, in which i still believe the 69 427 COPO Camaro (or 69 COPO Chevelle for that matter) is not only much rarer, but also more valuable than a comparibly documented RPO LS6 coupe. Personally, I wish the COPO WAS worth less, FAR less.... then maybe I could afford to buy one! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Re: 70 LS6
 

"The secret" to the LS6 ragtop is that a supercar buyer interested in speed/performance usually did not want a more expensive, heavier convertible. It wasn't a secret to order one, it was just that not many folks wanted it. Same reason they only made a handful of Hemi convertibles too."..................................."undesirab le,heavy and expensive"...never heard of a $1,300,000.00 musclecar quite described that way.....

Re: 70 LS6
 

No offense meant, as I was not in any way saying that LS6 ragtops or Hemi convertibles are not desireable. I think you misread what i said... I have no arguement that LS6 ragtops and Hemi convertibles are VERY desireable and VERY valuble... TODAY. I was speaking about when these cars were being sold new 30+years ago. The desireabilty today stems from the fact that they WERE very low production when new.... I'm sure if GM or Chrysler could have sold 25,000 of these in 69/70 they would have, and they would not have the collectibility or value they have today. The fact that not many people bought them back then is what MAKES them what they are today.

Re: 70 LS6
 

The initial discussion was about LS6 coupes, not convertibles. I'd take the LS6 convert over a COPO any day. But not an LS6 coupe over a COPO.

Re: 70 LS6
 

Nobody has mentioned or factored in a Canadian documented COPO, hard to argue with George up in Canada with the GM records. So where does the LS-6 coupe fall in next to a Canada COPO?
Motown https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Re: 70 LS6
 

I think Camaros in general bring more money than Chevelles.

Re: 70 LS6
 

I can see where this thread is going!

TASTES GREAT!

LESS FILLING!

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: 70 LS6
 

Exactly, seems as though we have strayed away from the original questions about this Astro Blue LS6 at the start of this thread and what these cars go for. Regardless if you prefer COPO's or the LS6, recent trends would indicate this dealer is packing about $30-50 grand over what this car is worth. I would say $85,000 to $100,000 would be a decent range.

Re: 70 LS6
 

We've moved from the quality and veracity discussion of the blue LS6 to "musclecars as an investment." I grew up wanting a Chevelle, and that's why I own an LS6 now. Everybody pretty much ends up trying to buy the car that "hits them" in a certain way. At least that's what the HOBBYISTS do....speculators will buy whatever the consensus says is the "fastest rising value" car available. I like the advise that I heard quite a bit when I got into buying musclecars: "Buy what you like; if it goes up in value you will enjoy it and it will continue to be more valuable. If it doesn't go up in value, you will still be proud of it and enjoy it."

Re: 70 LS6
 

Well put...

Re: 70 LS6
 

Yup, if you don't enjoy your car, why have it!

Re: 70 LS6
 

[ QUOTE ]
Yup, if you don't enjoy your car, why have it!

[/ QUOTE ]

That seems like a simple and logical question, Jeff, but I feel pretty strongly that many folks in the "hobby" are not in fact in the hobby, but looking for a refuge from their poor performing stock portfolios. To them, making a quick buck is what this hobby is all about.

Re: 70 LS6
 

No doubt about that. I bought my JL8 car because I wanted to have something different that if I had to sell it would hold more value than most Camaros. My 401K isn't exactly performing very well either.

Re: 70 LS6
 

[ QUOTE ]
No doubt about that. I bought my JL8 car because I wanted to have something different that if I had to sell it would hold more value than most Camaros. My 401K isn't exactly performing very well either.

[/ QUOTE ]

You actually might want to check your most recent 401K statement; mine has started bouncing back again https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif

Seriously though, there are a lot of people now in the hobby that NEVER drive their cars, nor do they ever intend to. They are buying whatever the market says will increase in value the fastest. It's always been a nice side benefit of this hobby to expect some appreciation in the car's value, but that shouldn't be the only reason to buy a classic car.

Re: 70 LS6
 

Heck, I drove my '67 Camaro RS/SS 396 in the snow a few weeks ago. Well, the snow started during my drive and the streets were clear. Here in Seattle the 'cabin fever' sets in after several weeks of gray skies so I had to get the Camaro out for a little therapy session. The best part is about 20 minutes after I get home and close up the garage. I go out there and the whole garage smells of a mixture of 100LL Avgas/92 octane, a tinge of burned oil (105,000-mile motor), rubber and vinyl. You just don't get that from new cars. Brain cells? Who cares! I just love the way the garage smells after a drive.

Re: 70 LS6
 

[ QUOTE ]
Also while BE rears are hard to come by they aren't impossible and since that is one of the "key" COPO components people are even restamping them...

[/ QUOTE ]


Greg, I know of a guy right now that is building a Yenko clone, actually really good fake. He started with an X66 that was originally an L35 minus the engine. The rear was coded BL and he restamped the L to E. The kicker to this whole deal is that it is right in the middle of the first 50 Yenkos built in 69! I know that there are a few things that I will not mention here that will give the car away, but to the unknowing it could be passed off as legit. This situation is not the norm for most clones as the car is the fake. Now let me tell you what I looked at this weekend.

I had a guy send me to look at a car in Atlanta on Saturday. It was supposed to be a legit documented big block. Well everything was correct on the car, original engine, trans, rear, and even the shocks! No restamps here. This thing was beautiful! The owner gave me all of the documentation and I went and made copies at a local Kinkos. Well last night during the boring part of the SuperBowl I discovered the buildsheet was a fake! A very good one at that. A few things that gave it away were that some of the codes were wrong for his application. The shock numbers and the radiator hose codes were wrong. Not something I would have caught while looking at the car but only upon closer inspection. The fonts on some of the numbers were not the same as the original sheets I had for other cars built around the time his was. I told the possible buyer that the car was probably legit but the paperwork was bogus. He said the he would have to do some checking with previous owners to find out where the docs got bogused up before considering this car for purchase. So here is a situation where the paperwork was made to help document a car that really could have stood on its own without it.

About the only way we can keep this hobby honest is to police it ourselves. When everyone realizes that a trim tag, buildsheet, window sticker, or POP are items that should not be allowed to be reproduced, then the fakes are going to get harder to detect. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/frown.gif

BTW, didn't someone get in a fight with the guy that repros the POP's at Bloomington a few years ago?...... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif.........RatPack...........

Re: 70 LS6
 

I think it is unfortunate that the "speculators" and folks that are not true enthusiast have driven the prices to the levels that they are. This only encourages the fraud and desception that is going on. While I don't think it really matters to some whether their car is a "clone" or "fake" or that the documents are "bogus" it ultimatly hurts all in the hobby. Anytime people are trying to get magazine coverage or enhance a reputation as "the guy with all the cool cars," by passing off bogus cars it trickles down to the guys that just want to own the car of their dreams. For every guy that has the funds to absorb the loss on a bogus car, there are dozens that it ruins and causes them to loose interest in old cars. The thing I think that is important to remember is that while Yenkos, COPO's and the liek are hot now and people will pay big money for them...will they always??? Doubtful...What happens when the market takes a downward turn and all of the "speculators" and guys that routinely trade cars amongst themselves in the hopes of making a turd into a creampuff get out?? The "little guy" that is fortunate enough to buy what he thinks is a "good" car gets hurt unless he does homework..I had to tell a Yenko owner this weekend some info that I think he already knew..that his 100k+ investment was more than likely a re-body...Now for him, it might not be a big deal..for me it would have amounted to a huge loss...Until the hobby forgets the dollar signs and the true enthusiast reclaims the market there will always be the crooks.

It is interesting the amount of info I found out over the last few days regarding Yenkos/COPO's and the number of cars that are in "big name" colelctions that have questionable histories..Some own them because they don't care, some don't know, and some don't want to know..What really hurts is when these cars get passed around among others in the "know" and the prices go up each time and the "history" gets cloudier... It is ultimatly up to us to make sure that we "police" ourselves and the cars.

Re: 70 LS6
 

[ QUOTE ]
Maybe this one has been discussed before, but does anyone have any info about this car, or this dealer? Seems a bit high priced for a hardtop, or is this what the LS6 cars are bringing nowadays?

http://www.desertautosport.com/main....l&CarID=97

[/ QUOTE ]

As someone may have mentioned earlier this car was also recently listed on ebay. I didn't follow it to the close but with about 4 hrs. remaining the high bid was $77,000 and the reserve had not been met.