Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Tom

Pete McCarthy in one of his books list a 545982 flywheel but doesn't mention it's nature. Do you have one or know what it is? Standard or auto, and what material?

Source Pontiac Musclecar Perfomance Pete McCarthy and John Angeles Page 219

Also this book list no variations of parts depedent on transmission usage.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

[ QUOTE ]
Tom you might know this one, you would appear to be top dog on RAV stuff in this forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

Steve,

I mean no disrespect here, but I went back and read that thread. From what I can tell, it appears that he is the only Pontiac guy that you and your buddy "mrmuscle" have not alienated.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Mark

Sometimes the boat has to be rocked a little bit.

I think I squared things with Jim M.

And Bill Shultz was a misunderstanding; I honestly thought he was one of the aynonmous phone call people, just faking an id to jack with me.

GTO_Don, I can't explain him.

Dajudge was a race challenge, I never was mad at him and I don't think he's mad at me. He is more than welcome to correct me.

I like this forum, and if numbers and attention are ok with the leaders. The site sure got that. I think everyone learned something, I know I have. We still yet may change Pontiac history, and this debate was going on long before it hit this site.

If no Pontiacs had ever left the doors without this motor so be it. But if they did, the more time that goes by the harder to prove.

Would you agree from what you've read there is room for suspicion that a RAV motor may have been so put in a car or two?

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Don't start that again Steve. I know some of us want to do something else THIS weekend.

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what do you mean 'you cant explain me'! DONT TRY TO! im one of the nicest people you would ever meet. its when somebody is bullheaded and constantly makes stupid remarks about a subject he knows nothing about.For your information,those codes are published in that book because it was going to be a production engine! anybody knows any and every over the counter block just had a SR ON IT FOR SERVICE REPLACEMENT! NO CODES. ITS PLAIN TO SEE SOMEBODY STAMPED THAT BLOCK YOU HAVE [OTHER THAN PONTIAC]THATS WHY THAT JUDGE WILL NEVER TURN OUT TO BE REAL. EXPLAIN THAT!! signed; Pete townsend [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/headbang.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Don

Let's see you be objective. Take another look and lets talk about it reasonably.

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I conclude that it was done long ago, how long I have no clue, I would certainly say before 99, the combonation of rust, paint, and depth leaves me to believe the W and numbers are of the same time and style stamping, leaving the Y not an exact match and out of line with the W, what does the Y mean, I don't know, I promise you I didn't do it, I don't see SR anywhere....?

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Although most SR blocks dont have engine codes stamped in them the service techs were supposed to stamp the code in them the same as the block they were replacing. For ID purposes. This didnt get done very often. Dont know that a RAV block would have a SR # as it was not a replacement for any block installed in a car. Probably had an engineering DS # if anything.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Put aside all the previous debate of whether it came in a car or over the counter, my question is now "what is a production code doing in a RAV block?"

If we assume for the discussion that it is an untampered GM stamp, then why is it there?

It was suggested to me today during a phone conversation that the crate engines may have had a different holley carb and accordingly stamped in the crate as such. We are now waiting on verification on that theory from the owner of one of the motors.

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On one of the pictures I have of a RA V (Rodder and Super Stock )it shows a smog pump and all its accessories on the engine. It is setting beside another engine with all the smog accessories. Pictures show several engines.

Apparently Pontiac was trying to get it certified otherwise why put it on the engine. If they were trying to get it certified then it would make sense to put a code on the engine for future reference. The WY code shows here http://www.wallaceracing.com/cgi-bin/engine3.cgi as a 400/375hp engine along with 3 other 375 hp engines.

I also have pix of the engine in a car with the smog pump/accessories attached.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

It does look like GM was gearing up for production, why else would they have set up codes. They must have invested a substantial amount of money in the RAV program.

They had even converted the base of the ram air cleaner to accept the holley, as "5RA" is listed in the the air cleaner block on several RAIV build sheets.

Tried your link out, some one has a nice site there.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Steve, what is that other unber stamped on the block? Isn't that the engine production number? If so, wasn't it part of a sequential numbering scheme? If that's true as well, then shouldn't that number be related to some date range? Then you can see if the engine was built before or after the car was built. How do the dates relate on the block vs the car's build date? Jack, I'll try to get those magazine articles loaded up later today and link them in so people can take a look at them. The smog setup makes you think they were trying to prep it for regular production. You can also see the heat riser tubes for the air cleaner which would also be for a production engine.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Jeff
I too have wondered about the number, the one block that I have had in my physical sight other than this one had the number only. No production code, no SR, and VIN... so I'm not sure. I'll check on the date code next time I talk to Gary, after I get to the bottom of the production code then I'll work on that long number. I should say if I get to the bottom of it, nothing about this has been easy.
Steve

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Jeff,
Sorry to have jumped in and not trying to hurry you along at all. Just wanted steved and others to understand that there is information to substantiate the fact that they were trying to certify the engine for production.

For others I sent Jeff quite a bit of information that he is going to put on a link for all to view. Both magazine articles and lots of pictures. Just be patient with him and he will get it to us when he can. I assume he has a life outside this forum. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

[ QUOTE ]
I assume he has a life outside this forum. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img] [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, I was at Englishtown today for the last day of the season. Perfect weather for late November. Saw some nice Mopars(Cuda and 69 Charger) running low 12's and those turbo Buick's running mid-high 9's.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Steve,

Is the number above the ìWYî on the engine block ì689549î? (thatís what it looks like) Also, is the photo in your attachment from the block that is currently in Garyís silver Judge (the one that has been there since it left the factory)?

Rita [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

I can't tell what the first number is, that is the block out of the car. The air cleaner pic was a sheet pulled off a car before it left the line (not the car in debate).

Gary sent this to me in an email concerning the stamping:

"Remind them that I scraped the original paint off to take the picture, this was a factory stamp. Look at 100 original pontiac engines of all types and the two letters don't always line up perfect. If someone was trying to make a bogus stamping, they would do it perfect anyway."

I'll get the date code and first digit soon as I talk to him again.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

JLP,the only pic I have seen with the pump was the 303 engine.The production exhaust manifolds had a pluged port for the pump tubes.Also the 69 T/A R/A pan was clearanced for the Holley.I really believe the motors were designed more for the bird than the GTO as there were way more exhaust manifolds out there for the birds.Tom

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

When Jeff gets them posted in the Rodder and Super Stock Magazine article there is a picture from above of an engine and you can see the one next to it also. Pix was taken almost directly over the RH valve cover. Easy to see the smog equipment. There is a set of 4 pictures with a page # of 15 and one of them is an engine on a dyno. Long branch exhaust manifolds but don't know enough to tell what they are for. Almost look like big car type.

In the Article written by Alex Warlordy it shows the only good picture (page 51) of the engine actually installed in a car. You can see the smog pump etc. quite clearly. You will have to enlarge the photos to see them. Who knows, I may actually cause more ?? than I try to clear up. I am just trying to give more information. It would be great if one came off the assembly line in a car but if not, oh well.

When the link is posted I would suggest printing all articles then you can put it together better than I am here. I sent these to Jeff because I felt someone from this site should try to post them for this thread.

By the way, I lived in Kodiak, AK when I gathered all these articles. Ordered the T-37, 455HO there too. Didn't even live near a drag strip. Well, at least not a legal one. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/naughty.gif[/img] Be patient and they will find their way to the web with the link here.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

JLP

That is an interesting post for sure, don't know what it means but I sure want to find out.

I have a lead on a possible assembly line worker, hopefully that will pan out to some good info. Via the immaculant Build Sheet. He is slow to email, and I have many questions for him.

I also have some type of engineering notes or possilbe RAV projection from GM maybe..? Not sure what that will be until I get it in the mail later next week.

We might not prove this or that, but we sure may become more knowledgeable on RAV before it's over.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Hello, another first time poster,been following this thread with interest, was looking thru my copy of "The Big Little GTO Book" by Albert Drake, on page 143 there's a picture of a RAV motor with the smog pump,etc on it. there's some quotes from George Delorean, on how he and a partner, tried to strike a deal with Jaguar, to get some engineless Jags, to transplant RAV motors in them, because Jaguar was having trouble passing emissions at that time.it fell thru, but he claims he was doing everything he could, to keep the RAV program alive! interesting info. [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

The reason for the post is information. I had it and wanted to share it and hoped it would shed some more light on the RA V discussion. Nothing more, nothing less. I apologise for the confusion. Let's see what happens.

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Tom

Have you ever seen this document? The seller sent me this one page of 9 over email, I asked him what was it's origin but he told me I would find out from the cover page when I recieved it.

Also the carbs your talking about, do you know if they could be bought seperate or just on the crate motors?

Steve

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Well, the site I'm trying to load the articles to is limiting the size and it's a little slow to load. I've resized the articles some, but I din't want to go too small. If anyone wants the articles full size, I can email them since I have a cable connection which is pretty quick. Here's the links to the pages of the Street Rodder article:
Rodder Page 1
Rodder Page 2
Rodder Page 3
Rodder Page 4
Rodder Page 5
Rodder Page 6
Rodder Page 7

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

as I thought,those motor pics in attach #6 are for the 303 RAV engine.If you see the carb number 4546,that is the 303 Holley carb,also the red dist cap means they had the TI dist and you will notice also the stick shift flywheel.That is the only engine I have ever seen the pump on.All the other motor pics,HotRod cover and others have not shown the pump on a 400 motor.Tom

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Jeff

Excellent work!!!! Vacum operated flaps!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where are those at, never heard of them. The article also elludes to the air foils being a later development.

When the article talks about the crank, made me Remember Pete Mc talking about a foundry in Harvey Illinois made them. He asked for a hundred, they told him minimum of 1000. Wonder how long it would take to sell 1000. I'd buy a couple. Be nice if some one with deep pockets would take that project on.

From the photos on the last page, it's very apparent a lot of engineering went into the motor. I wonder who the wonderful person at GM was that pulled the plug on the project.

Steve

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Tom

In reference to the post a few back, where I attached a pic of a page. This is the description of the auction, have you ever heard of this booklet?

"This booklet was originally released in 1971 by Pontiac Engineering-Special Projects, it contains COMPLETE blueprint-specifications, description and part numbers for all parts of the Ram Air Five Engine. Although the Quality of the copying of this booklet is not great, the information it contains is INVALUABLE. There are nine pages total (b/w), plus an unofficial dyno rating sheet. I will also sell these booklets outright, e-mail me. Picture shown is an actual RA5 engine in a '70 GTO Judge."

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Steve,one reason it was pulled is the engine would not perform as good as a RAIV!EVERYTHING with the combo was no good for making HP.The dual plane intake quits around 6100,the ports are way to big and have good flo but NO velocity,the rods were way too heavy,the exhaust ports were reg pontiac design with turn down ports that have the WORST intake exhaust ratio of ANY pontiac head made.The list goes on as to the complete failure of the project.The heads need big CI,huge lift cams and hi CR to take advantage of the ports.I use a 660 lift cam in my motors.They are a great piece of pontiac history and I have tried to preserve some of it but it was and is a poor combo for racing.Tom

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Tom

Reality bites!!! But the motor still gets me excited. I can't help it, Pontiac is in my veins.

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A similar situation to the Chevy small block hemi heads for the 302. They did not better than a slightly worked set of stock heads so the program was scrapped. Those RAV heads have HUGE intake ports. I can see why they didn't perform in real world situations.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Some interesting things in the The Big Little GTO by Albert Drake, page 142 and 143. Credits Joh MacDonald with killing the program. Several insights from George DeLorean, and substantialy more engines are around according to George than is typically talked about... It says John D left for Chevy in late 68, which it has been my understanding it was 69. Typos and errors can always be present.

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Guys,
It is hard to believe how much these Pontiac heads look like the Ford 302 Tunnel Port heads. It seems Pontiac "Borrowed" the idea from Ford, which doesnt make a lot of sense since Ford had problems with this head configuration in 1968. SCCA rules required any race application engine to be a street unit, although Ford had everyone convinced the Tunnel Port was being released to the public, even a magazine cover showed a street version testing against a Z28, Ford never actually released a street version due to ongoing problems with the head configuration for street use. The SCCA let Ford finish the season with the engine and that was it. They then went to the Boss engine. So why would Pontiac copy a design that proved to be troublesome for both street and racing applications? If anyone is interested I can post some photos of the Ford heads, with the exception of a small difference in exhaust port design they are almost identical.
Thanks,
Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/dunno.gif[/img]

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Matt

Here's a quote from Ablert Drake's book, page 142:

"One of the Ford factory sponsored cars had a 427 built by Homan and Moody. Delorean (G), fascinated by this powerful, high revving and durable engine, persuaded the driver, Benny Parsons, to lend him the heads, valve train and camshaft. He took these to Pontiac engineers in charge of experimental engine development and they studied the parts closely. The result was Ram Air V."

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Steve,
The 427 Tunnel Port performed well as a race engine, but Fords first attempt at using the Tunnel Port design on a production street engine was the 302 in 1968. That is when all the problems had developed for street use. I would have thought that Pontiac would have taken notice to that, but possibly they already had the Pontiac V engine developed to the point of no return, based on the performance of the Ford 427 engine. For that design to work correctly it required huge cubic inches and high RPM which both the Ford 302 and Pontiac 400 were lacking for constant street use.
Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/beers.gif[/img]

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

I can say from experience that the RA 5 was not the dog that everybody acts like,the 69 GTO that i did with the 5 motor,stock GTO exhaust manifolds,2.5 kinked full exhaust system,4.88 gears ran a 12.4 at 111.00,this was in a concours show car.It pulled hard to 7000 rpm,i drove it once when i first finished it with no exhaust,and 2 foot dumps,that car flat out flew,the exhaust really hurt it.I have had every Pontiac motor made,the RA5 car was definetely the neatest.the biggest flaw with the motor was that the rods were junk,and most of them let go before the true potential of the motor was realized.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

John,I never meant to say the V is a dog.My motor is 446CI,9.5CR and makes 555HP at 6100 with a single 950 holley.I have had a few V motors on the dyno and they all gave up around 6100 with the factory single 4.The 2-4 tunnel ram pulled all the way to 6900.What I was saying is if you put the same setup with a RAIV head with the same flo numbers as the V head,the IV would make more HP.I have not done the compare my self,just from a eduacated guess.Tom

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Please find attached a picture of the stamping on the front of my RA IV block. This is off a one owner fully documented car. This RA IV JUDGE is a Pontiac Michigan Car which is where the car in question is from. Take a look at the font of the stamping the W in the picture you show is not even close to the style of the font on my block. Look at the engine production serial number above as well. I know for a fact mine is correct the vin is on the block to the passneger side of the timing cover. The casting or part number for a RAM AIR V block is also different as well it is not shared with any 400 block Pontiac Manufactured.

I have been involved with Pontiacs for twenty years, besides the Crystal Turquoise Bobcat car I have only seen one other car with a Ram Air V in it. The owner was restoring a 69 Judge and it was of course Carousel Red. The owner must have wanted the ultimate Judge and found and installed a Ram Air V engine with all the right parts in it. Purely PMD out New Mexico did this car and it was very nice, I saw this car at Dennis Kirbans GTO reunion show that he sponsored years ago. That engine had the block casting numbers but did not have any other markings on it as I recall.

From all the GTO's the I have owned and seen, the stamp on that block does not look right. I have a very open mind to ideas and would love for this car to be a factory V car. But this motor was never emissions certified and the only way that I feel that motor got between those fender wells is by a mech at Knafel Pontiac. After all the research I have done regarding Pontiac GTO restoration and history all markers point to a dealer converted car unless there is a Proctecto Plate or build sheet that shows a RA V serial production code in it this car has to be seen as a dealer installed Ram Air V option. Which is not a bad thing.

The only question I have is why do you or someone else want to make this car something it is not? If Knafel dealer installed this engine that is great. He converted a IV car to a V car as an option.

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Your picture was not attached to your post. I'm not a Pontiac person so I have no idea what their stampings look like. I agree that a dealer converted RA V is a very special car like the early Yenko's, Nickey, Dana cars. The date on the block and the engine production number should shed some light on the timing though.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

I thought we were just having a general discussion about RAV? I asked to drop the debate of the car for now, and I was trying to find out if codes are on other RAV blocks. If they are, maybe then go into the actual stamping style or who when and why. I don't know that you could compare this to a regular production block.

Re: 70 Judge RAIV and V continuation
 

Can anyone tell ME where the casting date is on a RA V is? It must be VERY difficult to find.