Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

If the position is taken that if it is "dead then bury it" then ANY repair that would render the vehicle inoperable could be considered non repairable. You guys with re- stamped blocks, trannys, and rears... You know who you are!

The rebody issue is simply the extreme of saving the remaining cars that are out there. How are one of these cars properly saved? NOS GM sheet metal? How many parts can be replaced before the car should die? one floor? two floors? one quarter panel? both? One of the ZL-1's that were restored over a decade ago had almost all of the sheet metal removed excluding the driveshaft tunnel. The point that I am making here is that after reading this string of posts this topic is clearly about "rarety and not getting ripped off". It seems that those of us with the nice cars are perhaps overly concerned with maintaining market value. There are extremes on both sides of this opinion.

Many of the fighter aircraft recovered after WW2 currently on display were put together from several different planes- yet when assembled they clearly represent a completed example of that type of aircraft. Again-rarity is the issue here. Rarity drives the desireability of an item higher. If the desireability is high (and this web site clearly drives that) - the remaining material that is out there will be built up into functional equipment. Those of us with these cars begin this process by paying big dollars for desireable cars, which drives the remaining junk values in to the range where it becomes viable to do a "rebody". As long as the price is high, desireability is high, we will have the major component replacement issue. Interiors, Blocks, entire drive trains, major sections of the body sheetmetal - or entire bodys from the firewall back. Bottom line buyer beware- know what you are buying and be happy with it! [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

68TOPSTOCK,
You're right about the bedtime story. And just as bedtime story tellers don't all tell the same story the same way, hobbiests/businessmen interpret the "acceptable" restoration process differently. Sometimes that interpretation is a justification for their personal situation.

If I had a rust free all original Yenko, I might argue that only rust free all original Yenkos are "real" ones.

If I had one with rusty quarters, I might argue that it's OK to replace quarters and still have a "real" one.

If I had a total rust bucket, I might argue that rebody is OK.

But since I have a clone (I actually prefer Brian's "Tribute car" term but I dont want to appear to be legitamizing clones), I argue that it's not real, but it's not a fraud, either.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

If you need another body to save your car, how come you're not saving the other body instead? Because it's a plain old, base car.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Jeff, that is the point. I am not discussing for or against a rebodie being acceptable, I am just trying to look at the big picture here. Nobody wants to take the time or spend the money to restore a plain jane car. To justify a high dollar restoration on most accounts it has to do with rarity. However, I have known cases where someone has invested all the time and money in a plain jane car for sentimental reasons, but in most cases it is for rarity. I would think there are two reasons to do a rebodie. First, you have a car which may need quarters and floor pans, and maybe a trunk pan. This is expensive and time consuming, real expensive for someone having the work done. In this case the body is in my opinion being a bodyman, an easy fix. I would certainly not even consider a rebodie in this case, I would just fix what I had and move on. For the person who would do a rebodie here, it is simply about money, money, money. That I find to be dead wrong. Now lets look at the second scenario, you have a rare car, lets say every panel on the car is rusted badly, including the firewall and dash. Two ways to go here, replace every panel including the firewall and dash, which in essence when you are done what have you got, a new body. In this case I may go along with a rebodie if it were a rare enough car, ZL-1 etc. What it comes down to is this. We have no problem with changing a front fender on one of these cars, so what is the difference between a front fender and a quarter panel? None with the exception of how it attaches. One bolts and one welds. Difference between a inner front fender and inner rear fender? The way it attaches, and so on and so on. We have to remember that the bodies we are discussing here in the beginning were nothing more than a collection of parts that were assembled into a whole. No different then a front clip on a car, it is removeable in one piece, so it in itself is the front half of a car body. We have no problem with replacing one piece, fender vs quarter, etc etc, or if needed we replace the entire thing, which in that respect has no difference then replacing the entire rear half. If we are going to argue against a rebodie, it is then going to have to be unacceptable to replace any panel that is welded on, quarters, floors, etc. Once it becomes acceptable to start replacing welded on panels, it does not make any sense to say, "Ok, stop, you have gone far enough". If one is ok, then all is ok. I am not saying I agree with a rebodie, what I am coming around to is it has to be all or none as where is the imaginairy line that you cant cross. In one post here someone had said something about burying a dead car, yet in another section of this forum he had urged someone to buy the X-race car Mighty Mouse off E-Bay and save it. That car would need every panel on the body, or a different body. We even argue with ourselves about this issue. Nobody wants to see a rebodie, yet nobody wants to see an important piece of history gone forever either. None of us in this hobby has the right to tell anyone else what to do with their car, no more then we want to be told. On the other hand, no one has the right to intentionally decieve anyone else, unfortunatly a lot of deception is occuring in this hobby. But, here is the key. We live in America, or Canada, same freedoms, which gives us the right to choose what we do with ours cars, homes, etc, etc, with that comes the right to choose what we buy from someone else. I personally would never buy a restored car unless the car came with step by step photographs of the restoration, before, during, and after so that I know what I am buying, and if the person who ends up buying the car from me requires seeing the same photos before he buys, well he has chosen to know what he is buying. Anybody who wants to spend the big money on buying a restored car should be smart enough to make a informed decision on what they are buying, no body is forcing anyone else to buy their car. With the exception of the true original survivors left, a great deal of the restored cars have had major componants replaced on them, whether the current owners know it or not, or if they admit it or not. We have the right to choose, I choose not to buy a car with a rebodie, but I also choose to replace every panel on a car if I believe it is a piece of history worth saving. However, when I do a restoration (I have done a great deal)I do take photographs, or video of every process that leaves my shop with the car. I started this thread as a survey of sorts, it has went where I expected, not many of us are comfortable with a rebodie, yet at the same time we are not comfortable with others telling what to do with our cars either. In this hobby today, just make sure of what you are buying, and if you are not sure get an expert to look at it. If the car has a recent restoration and the owner dosent have photos, ask yourself why? More food for thought. Thanks, Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Great post [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Here's some more food for thought.......How do you explain that feeling you'd have watching that Yenko,ZL-1,COPO,Motion,Nickey ect. car leave your driveway headed for the scrap yard? That feeling would describe, what I believe, most would feel about a rebody.There goes the real deal!I know people that save the old sheet metal just cause it's original to there car,$hit or not.Personally I don't feel bad about changing a quarter,been there done that.Watching a Harrell body ride off to become dust...well that's something I hope I'll never see...

Steve

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Obviously this discussion is looking for opinions on how people perceive these cars and their restorations. I'll say that in my opinion, there is a difference between a rebody and replacing welded metal like quarter panels. If you damaged your car back in 69, the dealer would replace the damaged panel and repaint the area to match. That has been an accepted practice for a long time. If you damaged the entire body, the car was totalled, you weren't given a new body to put all other parts on. Saving a rusted out or severly damaged body on a rare car is a difficult and expensive task and it helps preserve the history of these cars. We all know there are people doing rebodies and back-halving cars so they can make a buck. I won't buy one of these cars and I'm sure most of the people here wouldn't either. But I see no problem with replacing rusted or damaged panels or body parts. It's no different than replacing other maintenance items like radiator hoses, spark plug wires. But the way I see it, the body shell is the actual car that the VIN and title go with. I sure wish we could get some more people to add their thoughts to this discussion. I don't expect everyone to agree, but it always helps to hear other thoughts.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

I have no problem with a rebody as long as the original cars body was totally 100% unsalvagable. I don't mean tubbed cars either which i consider very salvagable. But the ones where literaly every panel needs replaced even the roof. Here is how I look at it: I would rather have a original rust free body that was welded together by the workers on the assembly line circa '69 that has it's original sheet metal versus a car having 90% of it's original sheetmetal replaced by new GM sheetmetal that was made last year and welded together in some body shop somewhere.
Dave

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Jeff, maybe the reason more people aren't sharing their thoughts is that we beat this subject to death about a year ago. The result? Similar to now. Differing opinions about how much is "too much", but, a pretty fair agreement that the body shell, and intact firewall seem to carry the "soul" of the car. I don't remember ANYONE believing that a "rebody" [replacement body] was acceptable. You can not have tags & title, apply them to another serial number car, and, have a genuine car. You have a nice, but fraudulent, car. At least I THINK that's how it ended, but, if not, I'm sure we'll hear what others thought.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

On Friday, I received a call from another sYc BB member asking my opinion on this very question since I had been restoring cars for 26 years. I have done many cars over those years though I can honestly say I have never rebodied a car. I have however, had to replace a lot of sheet metal. 70 copo brought up a point that was the same point brought up with the sYc member that contacted me.

I was recently involved with a complete restoration of a WWII P-51C fighter that had been recovered from the basement of a Vo Tech school. The wings had been cut off with a cut off saw so they could move it there. Much of the aluminum skin was either too badly corroded or damaged to salvage. The long story short, this airplane received a 10 year plus restoration at a cost far exceeding $2,000,000. The final outcome was to be one of two currently flying P51B's in the world and carries the paint scheme of the Tuskegee airman on it's skin. For those of you who don't know, this was an all black squadron who protected our B-17 pilots overseas. While in their care, not a single B-17 was lost to enemy fire.

When I am at an airshow with the aircraft, there is nothing that can compare to seeing a 70 plus year old man break down in tears upon seeing the plane and completing coming unglued when offered a ride in the back seat. I give my personal qaurantee not one of these men gives a rats a$$ about what original sheet metal is on that airplane only that it brought back some very fond and deeply buried memories and they finally receive some of the gratification they have longed for. They care nothing about the current monetary value of the plane but only it's historic value. This airplane is valued at many millions of dollars today regardless to the fact that very little of it is original besides it's airframe certification and identification numbers and some misc hardware.

Some of our cars have the same effect on people at shows that these aircraft do. I have had many people come up to me over the years and thank me for sharing a piece of their childhood with them. They cared little about it's originality only the significant role it played in their life.

The moral of this story is that I do not condone nor do I participate in rebodying and/or restamping a car but would not feel much differently about a car if I knew the facts. Yes the car would be worth less but are these pieces of history not worth saving as at least a replica and not to bury those memories along with the car. This is just one man's opinion.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

This is a crucial point, a rebody is done mainly to save money, and or time, which to most is money. Extremely valuable cars (original shells) have been thrown away because of the "rebody" philosophy. We all know and agree most if not all cars can be saved, given time and meticulous work. To replace an entire floor and quarters on a rare piece can take 200-300 hours, if you perform it with factory spot weld removal and factory seam panel placement. Why do GM NOS panels cost so much? Because there is value to originality.

To all members:

I will gladly come pick up the remains of all the rebody ZL1's, COPO's, Yenko's, Motions, Harrell's etc. and will even come and pick up all those worthless bodies free of charge. Even without titles. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

It seems that even just proof of ownership or interest in a particular rare/desirable/historic vehicle , sometimes with no regard to originality ,is and has been accepted by the "Hobby' as a whole, just to varying degrees.

In my opinion the rebody phenomenon became prevelant with Vintage Road race cars many years ago, where the chassis numbers and tags were needed to establish a pedigree for a certain venue, Such as Historic Auto Racing. Some of these cars were resurrected with just a tag and no title and visa versa and this became acceptable as it secured the vehicles "spot" in history.

Questions arise when a Rebody is missrepresented and when market values are taken into account.

We have referred to 'The Shelby World Registry' which has long ago found it necessary to define various types of similar situations , which we are currently discussing.

I for one, feel betrayed when a particular vehicle is held out in the public eye as one thing, but in trun is actually something else. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Hey SS427, I would sure love to see that "Red Tail"!!!

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

http://www.cafsmw.org/smw-images/aircraft/p51c.jpg

Sorry, I said P51B earlier when it is actually a P51C. Sleep deprivation again. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/shocked.gif[/img] The B/C configuration is the same airplane, just depended on which plant is was built in as well as some other minor details. Off topic but definitely a piece of historic value no different than our cars.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Rebody, is not acceptable to me.
However changing welded panels is okay when done correct
and using correct parts.
It is 30 + years old cars, and i think that you just have to live with the fact that the wear and tear on most of the cars still alive sometimes make you have to change a quarter or some other body parts.

But a rebody is a big no no to me,

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

SS427,
Would love to see that plane, my brother does that for a living, he recently finished restoring a 1947 Hawker Sea Fury which I had a ride in.... What A Rush! Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Original vs Correct? ..take a valuable car such as a 69 ZL-1 or Yenko Camaro. Its a basket case. If This car is going to be restored, it is no longer original. So, we must restore it to be correct. With restoration cost not being an issue, how should we do this restoration? A) a complete body panel replacement restoration except firewall using GM panels (not installed or assembled at the GM assy line) or B) a re-body (a 69 rust free body assembled by GM at the assy line). As for the donor car for the re-body, it was a assigned a VIN and body # also. IMO the VIN and Body # is not exclusive to the body they are applied to. As far as the COPO being restored, the body is not a 1 of 1 built for that drive train. What if.. Don Yenko submitted his order for the first 50 COPO's 2 weeks later. Would these cars have the same VIN and body #s ? I am not for or against a rebody being acceptable. I am stating my opinion on what i would be comfortable with if i should purchace a car that i knew had went thru a complete body restoration. I would much rather have a re-body. I feel it would be more correct. Just my opinion.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

I find this entire thread to be absolutly amazing. In the hobby of the art world all the experts and collectors agree on how art should be restored. In the antique world, for the most part all the experts and collectors agree on how and what is acceptable in a restoration, In the stamp and coin world and on and on....Most of all hobbies are in agreement. In the collector car world... we have experts and collectors at both ends of the spectrum, and both ends present a worthwhile and justifiable argument... Hmmmm....
Thanks, Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Wow, Rick Nelson I have never thought about this subject in relation to the way you compared it to the WWII veterans. Im sure that it was an emotional thing for them due to the circumstances. Good point.

I guess it is a situation like when my father sees a 55 Chevy done in a late 60's "day 2" fashion. It stirs memories of a better and simpler time when he had one back then. I guess he wouldn't care if it had the original pannels or not. It would just be the point of seeing somthing that was an importiant part of your past. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable? *DELETED*
 

The rebody phenomenon must have started with some young 20 something begining auto repair guys, who did not know how to trim, fit, and weld. It has just grown now into an accepted practice, and sold as a clean bill of goods to the unsuspecting general musclecar buyer. This will gaurantee the original body cars will become more valuable as time goes on.

GM perserved our cars with lots of anti-corrosion processes, to help the major internal structures survive. It is these internal structures that make the car usually restorable. Has anyone received a call from the FBI?

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

SS427,

Those warbird restorations are in a league of their own. We must realize new components are replacing the originals due to safety concerns, and strict enforcement of the FAA airframe inspection standards. People die when components fail in these old birds.

Have you been up to Mary Jane field? A number of nice a/c reside there. Have a friend restoring an A25 for the AF Museum. Mustang round up is fun, and they are not ferds!

All said and done, the nostalgia bug hits all generations, we are fortunate to have such an active and interesting hobby with our cars.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

68topstock, I would hope you are not referring to me as having a motive of trying to get a certain way of thinking accepted, I am not for a rebody as a general rule, I have restored these cars twenty years and never done one yet. I am more for getting everyone on one way of thinking to weed out the people who are decieving others with fraudulent cars. The way to stop that type of activity is to make everyone aware of how to make the fraud more difficult, such as the discussion about photographs in one of my earlier posts. Some good arguments have been made here on both sides of the issue, for and against, rebodys are going to happen no matter what, but if people are aware the only person who will end up owning one is someone who knows they own one or knows they are buying one. Awareness is the key.
Motown. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

MM,

I was not referring to anyone, just voicing my opinion. I hope you realize that when a body is switched, it is not the car it was. What happens to the "leftover" car body?
Anyone care to admit to what they are storing for future use?

I have heard of valuable cars undergoing this process, and the equally hard to understand "cowl clip". It is just that eventually the car will be sold as the "real deal", when it was orginally a 6 cylinder car body, with its own unique serial numbers stamped on it. Any changes to the VIN stamping and I think it would be considered fraudulant, to a reasonable thinking individual. Hasn't this been covered before?

How many of the restorers who have conducted a rebody, have admitted it, and signed an affadavit to this effect to go along with the cars paperwork? If not, why? It seems this is becoming an accepted practice and so common, what is there to fear? [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smirk.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

68TS
If you notice through this entire thread I have not taken either opinion, for or against, as I welcome an honest opinion from everyone on this issue, that tends to be difficult if the person giving the opinion feels like they are on the defensive. Would I personally own a rebodie? At this point it has never happened as a car important enough in history has not came my way yet with the body in such a condition that I had to make the decision that the only way to save it would be give it a new body. Maybe its because I am real good at what I do and I have never yet found a body I couldnt fix. But the average person if having to pay for the countless hours of work I have put into certain cars would be cost and logic prohibitive. So I suppose it does come back to money. I havent faced it because I havent had to pay for the work, if I did there are some cars that I may have considered for a new body. Thats honesty. We are never 100% sure of what we are going to do until we are in whatever situation it may be thats calls for a tough decision. Is a rebodie acceptable? For me I guess the answer would be no. For others? Thats back to freedom of choice. You and I may never find it acceptable, but we will still have to accept it for what it is, reality. We love our cars. Whenever you combine love with money there are going to be problems. Most people will do anything they have to in order to keep something or someone they love, then add protecting the bank account on top of that? With those elements, collector cars will do doubt get different bodies, so for the guys who dont believe in it all we can do is protect ourselves by being aware of it. Many people in this hobby are not even comfortable talking about it, as long as its kept quiet the more likely it is to happen. Discussions like this get people talking about it, thinking about it, and bringing it out in the open where it is less likely to happen without someone knowing about it. The wonders of communication. By the way, beautiful car you own, keep the history alive.
Thanks,
Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Motown,

Amazed... at how long a simple issue like this goes on and on. In my opinion when ANY significant part of the car has to be replaced - it is no longer the car that came off the assembly line. There are also levels of comfort with individual owners and buyers. They have to decide what they will accept and buy. The buyer and the market drives who pays what - and what is saleable.

Gentlemen, this is what we all collectively call a "restored" car.

As for the FBI and legal issues.. attempting to beat this dead horse further is like trying to regulate rules for the bedroom. The goverment has tried this and look stupid each time. As for cars, the FBI historically had a track record of coming after the large scale late model chop shops- where the "real" money was - and lately the salvage title and multiple hidden VIN stampings on late model autos, used car crash histories, and insurance tracking-has really made this a non issue with them. Now the issue today is the tracing of stolen parts and the export of stolen cars and parts. Back to the old stuff - (on a camaro as an example) As every one knows the lower front fire wall attaches at a spot welded seam in the front of the floors. Further, the top of the cowl is also spot welded at the top of the body cowl in the front. As I recall you could order almost every part of the body from GM except a very few body parts. As I remember the critical ones that you could not get was the front cowl and the D/S tunnel, Most other parts could be ordered from GM-new. As an example-on most cars prior to salvage titles there was big money to be made when a car got hit hard in the rear. The practice was to find a donar car and "clip" the entire rear. When these cars began to fail after repair- is when the goverment got in to the act and regulated rebuilders with salvage titles. But now hear this... the goverment has not been completly out of the picture. As many may recall goverment ordered scrappage programs have been operating in several states for quite some time to allow industry to buy back pollution credits.
this legislation also had an additional side effect of further drying up the old car parts market which some of us call a "parts car". It is up to the buyer and the seller to police this hobby. Bottom line buyers need information if the seller is deceptive,or the work on any part of the restored car is shoddy. Again buyer beware. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

?? The value of 2 restored cars. Supercar A has all major body panels replaced and repainted, it no longer has original sheet metal. Supercar B was cut at the A pillar and where the floor meets the cowl, then has a rust free body attached, car B now has factory built original sheet metal, would it not be more correct then one with replaced indivdual panels?
toner

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

NO!

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

I second that!!!!

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

I kind of view it as if a car was human. If a person is sick or gets in an accident, and gets a new heart, eyes, kidney, whatever.... does he or she become the person that the parts came from...... Nope! I think it is real important to take lots of picture as well. When I restore a car, I take pictures all the way along. So in the event I sell it, the buyer can see how good it was, or how bad it was. And if it was bad, they need to see it was fixed properly. I don't go for restamps as I feel you are really trying to fool someone. I've had offers to restamp stuff on my cars, but when you own a collection of any size, if you get caught restamping, everything you own becomes a question mark. I've put "IF" wheels on a car till I could find "XT's" It's interesting because it has happened where someone is contacted because they found the original motor for their car..... and it's supposedly already in the car. Wow, that car came with two motors!!!!
Peter [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

I think Pete is trying to say that cars have souls!

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Toner,

The debate goes on... At first the answer for most is NO.

But...

Original factory quarters are date coded on the inside where they meet the trunk. If the dates are inconsistant with the build of the car then that is a dead givaway that the car has been requartered. The point that I am making here is that if a guy goes to enough trouble to fake an expensive car then the doner rebody will have original sheetmetal - that will pre-date the build of the car that is being re bodied - in a manner consistant with production timeframes for the build of the original car.

Again-- Buyer beware. the buyer has to know what it is that he/she is buying. Research is the most important part here. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

I've been being quiet on this one just to get an idea of what everybody else thought about this. A rebody is definetly a last resort but I think in some cases it may be necessary. However, when it is done it should definetly have a direct effect on the value and desirability of the vehicle. How do you guys feel about what was done to this ZL-1?: www.69zl1.com
This is a great thread and I hope everyone will put in their opinion so we can get a general idea of the opinion in the hobby as a whole.



Jason

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

If you are spending any large amount of money on a car, you should get a signed total disclosure statement from the seller. Otherwise, you may just be the one trying to explain the restamped engine, and rebody after you have sold the car. Pleading ignorance won't cut it. A ton of pictures during the restoration will pay big dividends down the road. Once a Chevelle is built, it is a devil of a time to pull the heater box to show someone the hidden VIN stamp. Not too many sellers will be willing to do that. At least with having the car restored, you know exactly what you have and the car can be documented to death in the process. Buying a finished car can be a real crap shoot.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

ATTN: 68TS, Sixties muscle, Toner, & Motown Madman

The '69 ZL-1 in the pics posted by Supernovass has a pristine body in my eyes. It would be childs play to fix to what I've seen in my area. Where I come from the cars got winter salt baths + worse yet, fallout from the many steel/industrial plants. Years ago when the pollution was bad I would see cars that were 1-2 years old have the paint totally stripped off by rust.I have seen cars in junyards that 100% of ALL PANELS need replaced due to the fall out from the mills. Some of the cars have litteraly collpased (imploded) to where the cowls/roofs etc have caved in due to major structural rust. I have seen inner quarter side panels that the rear quarter window regulator bolts to have rusted out holes 16-20". I have seen rusted out holes in roofs by the upper windshield trim, not bottom, that go back 4-5"-clear open space. Not to mention rusted out cowls. Even the pillar the door hinges bolt to are totaly gone and the inner cowl structure has rusted away as well. You guys tell me you will try to replace these panels? No way. The car would have to be junked or rebodied. I really wonder how many posters that are against rebodying would not rebody if the car was one of the missing ZL-1's or 1 of 7 Hemi Cuda convertibles. I personally would not rebody a car because that's not my cup of tea but can see the reasons why some would. Sometimes it is not a question of time or money but the impossibility of redoing the car regardless of what one of the posters said above.
Dave

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Jason,

The guy doing this car clearly has the details worked out.

Is it a rebody? I would say so. In the end will the car be fixed in a manner fitting a car of its fame? Clearly yes as this car also passes the full disclosure test- and any future buyers will know exactly what they are getting. Only 69 of these monsters made. Cool car. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Whitetop, As I stated earlier I have never done a rebodie, yet I would not rule it out if the situation called for a extremely rare car and no other way to fix it. As for the ZL-1 in the link? That body is a piece of cake to fix, I have personally fixed many worse as I also live in the salt belt, and the pollution in Detroit in the seventies I can assure you was just as bad if not worse than Ohio. COPO Pete made a good point...when you get a new heart you do not become the other person. As for the FBI mentioned earlier on in this thread, believe me they have bigger fish to fry then a guy trying to save or restore his classic car. I will not go into the details on how I know that, but I do have experience with law enforement at the federal level. It all comes back to buyer awareness and what the owner and/or buyer is comfortable with, but I would not buy a high dollar restored car without a complete photo record.
Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

From the pics I would say they removed MORE then what was needed to restore the ZL 1 back to original. This route was easier then welding in indivdual pieces, but to extreme for this car.
toner

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Many prominent board members have chosen not to voice their opinion on this thread, wonder why? [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Anyone who has come from the street rod building world into the muscle car world wouldn't think twice about rebodying a car. This business has been going on forever without a second thought where they come from. The rebody in itself added little to the value of the car other than the fact that you would have solid metal to work with. In the muscle car world different things matter and different rules apply. Specific models, engine options etc are a couple of examples of what can add greatly to the value of the car. It might just take some time and a few court dates before these guys learn the new rules.

Re: Original vs Correct,, New Body Acceptable?
 

Anybody got a rule book? I beat a guy once in Detroit in a high dollar street race who said it wasnt fair because he couldnt hear to shift his car after I pulled a cable to uncap my headers. Everybody there got a chuckle out of it when somebody asked him to see the rule book on street racing. I made one of the "Street Freaks" issues of Car Craft in the seventies for having one of the fastest cars on the steets, long before Pro Street was born. The only official rules I know of when it comes to restorations are moral ones. if the intention of the restorer is to decieve someone then that would definetly be breaking the rules. As I have stated numerous times I dont agree with a rebody, the purpose of this thread was to be awareness as to ways to protect from buying something that is not what it is represented to be. That goes back to having a photo record of every restoration, just a different type of documentation. The real crime in the collector car world these days is the guy who takes a plain jane Chevelle and passes it off as an SS, which from what I have been reading in earlier posts here can be done. We have to remember that a lot of these cars are restored not for resale, but for the owners enjoyment, in which case no one has a right to tell the guy how to restore his car. If he does end up selling it for whatever reason and gives the new owner full disclosure who buys it anyway....well so be it. If that guy sells it and doesnt tell the next guy... well than they both are at fault, the seller for being decietful, and the buyer for not being smart enough to investigate what he is spending his money on. Yes, I do build street rods, which really has nothing to do with this discussion, as I was also driving a 69 427 Camaro in 1972, a car which I bought wrecked and fixed using its original body. I was collecting muscle cars when everybody else was throwing them away due to the gas and insurance crisis, and I owned a Yenko when their owners were peeling the stripes because nobody liked them. With respect to my background I believe I am somewhat qualified to have an opinion on this issue, as with most if not all of the other members here. Motown [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]