Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

Question??? Does the build sheet of most cars have the vin # on it or the body #???? [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif[/img]

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

You'll love this answer Mo: BOTH! [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img] Although, the body number was in larger print I believe, for whatever reason (different machine thus different font, more importance, etc., any other ideas?).

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

Body numbers were assigned when the Order was accepted for build, VINs were assigned (at least for Camaros) when the body was actually scheduled for building That may be the day before, or the week before actual construction. TRIM tags and VIN tags were prepared at the same time, TRIM Tags by Fischer, VIN's by Chevrolet to coincide with production of the cars. VIN's and Body numbers are both listed on Chassis broadcast sheets.

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

COPO; The VIN would have to be assigned before the car began production, because the VIN is stamped on various areas of a car's sheetmetal, cowl for Camaro, Firewall for Nova. There is no doubt that this had to, and did occur in the Fisher Body "body shop", the 1st phase of building a car. If Chevrolet did it, A. it would be next to impossible to reach the area, and B. they would be working on freshly painted sheetmetal. Tom

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

It looks like I may have gotten ahead of myself. I have some 03x dated cars, and I can't seem to make them fit into my "formula", which is odd, becuase the later cars fit darn near perfect...so where did I go wrong?

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

3 289XXX boby = 3 special paint. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/cool.gif[/img]
Just a remark.

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

Tom,
I believe the VIN stampings were done at the Chevrolet plant, not at the Fisher Body Plant. For instance, the Camaro front fenders were painted off of the car and would join up after the VIN was stamped in the two locations. I have a picture of a '71 Firebird at the Norwood plant without subframe or front end coming down the assembly line.

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

Tom,

This may help clarify things. I just recently re read the Nova Times series from several months in late 1993 on the Fisher body side of the Willow Run Plant. Several Willow Run key employees were interviewed. It ran through the build sequence in generic detail covering the many years Novas were built. It a generic sense it might help this thread since GM probably did similar things since the build sheets, trim tags, VIN plates are similar between Chevy's. In a few words here are the highlights. (This summary does not do the series justice! Forgive me if I am a little too basic here and by all means pick it a part! [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/tongue.gif[/img] )

Body flow was controlled by the SEQUENCE (my emphasis) number based on the Production Schedule generated by the Data Processing (computer) department and published days in advance of the day the body was started. This controlled the "Body Shop Order of Run" which determined how many of each body type was put on the line and in what SEQUENCE. Body styles and options were distributed so as to not have 20 AC cars in row. It took longer to install AC than just a heater. The amount of time to install all of the options was determined by the speed of the line. Options were spread through out the production schedule to keep the line moving. Color was also a concern. The Body Shop Order of Run list creates a SEQUENCE number. As the body starts down the line the operator took a floor pan and marked a 4 digit SEQUENCE number in crayon from his copy of the "Body Shop Order of Run" onto it . Later as the body moved down the line a Fisher Body build sheet matching the crayon number was taped to the body. The sheet listed body style and options needing different body parts.

Until now the crayon number identified the body. If the Fisher Build sheet was lost, the crayon number ruled. As the completed body reached the Scheduling Clerk's Station the clerk checked the crayon number against the build manifest. The clerk matched the number to the last 4 digits on a trim tag which was already stamped with the BODY number. The clerk would then place the trim tag into the stamping machine. He added trim, paint and date codes. So the date code reflected the week the body was welded together. Since the body was not painted, the date code might be an earlier week than assembly week indicated on the VIN label.

The Scheduling Clerk was also responsible for the VIN. He took the VIN shown on the manifest and passed it to a portable stamping machine operator who dialed it into his machine. This was how the hidden VIN was stamped on the body. The VIN was probably assigned by computer, but this was not discussed in the article. So this is the missing piece of the puzzle.

The interior and exterior paint code was marked on firewall prior to painting. Willow Run BATCH painted cars. So regardless of the body number all red cars were pulled aside waiting their turn at the paint booth. At this point the body SEQUENCE number of the trim tag no longer mattered. As bodies moved through the rest of Fisher Body there we assigned a NEW SEQUENCE number at various stages. That is why the SEQ number on the Fisher Body sheet does not match BODY number or VIN. A body might have many SEQ numbers during the build process. A new SEQ was assigned by GM after the body passed thought the wall.

The function of the BODY number was only the original SEQUENCE number for the body. Since COPO cars were all built the same, Data Processing (the computer) probably distributed them though the Production Schedule. Having ALL of the COPO cars in a row probably did not happen. If a part was not available and the computer knew it, the body would not be scheduled to be built. If a shortage was found on the line the body would be pulled off. Pulling a body of the line was very bad.

Cars moved through the plant like ants at a picnic. SEQUENCE number was used to control the flow not VIN or Body Number. This explains why neither VIN nor Body Numbers are in date sequence.

Greg (sorry for the length. The fewer words I used the longer the message. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/grin.gif[/img]

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

Great info!

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

My broadcast sheet has a sequence # on it and I found that sequence # written on the firewall behind the driver's side fender. But it's a 3 digit sequence # on the Camaro. My car is an LA car though so they might have done things a little differently.

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

Greg,
Thanks for sharing that information!!
Ed

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

The 69 Chevelle build sheets have the sequence number (body no.) printed on the build sheet in same type as part codes. The first half of vin is printed in same type but second half of vin is in different type. This tells me the body number and serious no. (V8 or L6) were known at the time the computer printed the build sheet. I would guess vin serial number (sec. half) was added later by a different printer possibly located on the line. Some build sheets have a second hand written sequence number which is the same as the last three digits of the number stamped on trim tag in lower right field. This may be some type of secondary tracking number needed during the assembly process then added by hand on the build sheet. I was collecting 69 Chevelle Baltimore info to build a data base but have not been able to get a sufficient amount.

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

Greg; Great post. To expand, I had a low mileage Camaro, Norwood built, that had a 3 digit number on the firewall in crayon. I asked the Fisher Body formean about this. He explained it this way. The number was used to track the cars while in Fisher Body. He said it could start over at evevy shift, every day, what ever system that plant used. One of the purposes was to identify when a certain body was built, if there was a problem. He said that this number had no relation to the VIN or Body number, simply a way for FB to track the cars. Also, he explained the other crayon marks. The body tag was attched after the car was welded together and primered. Once tagged, rather then make the two remaining departments (paint and trim) read the tag, a person was assigned to read the tag and write in crayon on the firewall and bulkhead what was needed to be done. Thus, the X-code on the rear bulkhead for the trim dept. (such as X-44), and a paint code plus other fisher body adds on the trans hump/firewall area, such as DY for Daytona Yellow and D-80 for a rear spoiler. Many times this code is visible under the firewall paint because the firewall was painted from the bottom up, which would mean that the top (where the crayon markings are) would receive the least amount of paint. My Yenko Camaro still had 44 (which it is a X-44 car) on the rear bulkhead. And interesting, it also had 427 in crayon on each front fender extension. A lot of trucks and full size cars will have have numerous crayon markings very visible on the firewall. Tom

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

Rob
I'am curious about Batch of body 283XXX in 07C and 07E with standard paint and,the batch body 289XXX in 07D whith special paint. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/wink.gif[/img]

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

Jeff and Tom,

The series did mentioned 3 digits also. I believe that the intent was 1000 car separation. In reality a hundred car separation was adequate. Remember the article covered almost 20 years at just Willow Run, so 4 digits might also have been early sixties. Greg

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

VIN numbers were established before the body received the trim tag. But since there is nothing unique to the VIN and the cars options, I wonder if the Scheduling Clerk just assigned the next one on the list. Since there were multiple body fabrication lines, the chances of the bodys coming to the scheduling clerk in order were slim. VIN was not on the Fisher Body sheet. It was included on the GM Chassis and Body Broadcast copy after the body passed through the wall. So the VIN was know when these were printed.

The different type font might have been an attempt to make the last digits more legible. I worked with form feed printers a lot years ago. It is almost impossible to line up individual sheets in a printer after they have been removed. The guys on the line would not have bothered to put single sheets into a printer. They would have just written the number on the sheet. Were the last numbers on any of you examples out of line with the first numbers? Greg

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

In addition to Tom's comment, many Chevelle plants put the color code in yellow crayon just behind the brake booster and the schedule number in the recessed area behind the distributor. These have always been on the bare metal before the firewall was painted. I sometimes find remnants of masking tape on the top side of the firewall in the center where a build sheet was taped during assembly and ripped off.

On a recent Deuce restoration, I found what appeared to be an "A48 or 448" in the recessed area of the firewall. As I had no build sheet, I could not dicifer what this number meant. Marlin, I believe I sent you photos of this.

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

So, exactly when was the body number and the vin number assigned? Which was known first?

Also, someone tell me exactly WHERE on my Chevelle's frame the VIN is stamped!? [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/confused.gif[/img] I've had 3 and couldn't find it!

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

Rob,
I have had many Chevelles off the frame and have NEVER seen a VIN stamped on it no matter which plant. I have talked with some who have however. When there, it would usually be located on the top side of the frame, on the drivers side between the rear axel hump and the rear of the frame and just above where the frames part number and manufacturer stamp is.

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

Rick;
That white crayon marking is two separate codes. The 'A' refers to the last line on the trim tag, which decodes as the interior items other than the seats are black. The '48' also refers to the trim tag, paint code. 48 48 is forest green, top / bottom of course.

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

The larger font of the vin serial number appears to have been done in a second printer because some are not inline with the other numbers. Some are lined up fairly close others not close and are out of the box where they were intended to appear.

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

JoeC;
Is it possible the larger portion of the VIN # was rubber stamped by one of those multi-numbered ink stampers?

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

That's a good thought. The VIN was larger and it almost looks like it could be from a stamp instead of a printer. Was the VIN on the original window stickers a stamp also? It was a larger font than the rest of the window sticker.

I stand corrected, the VIN on the chassis broadcast sheet is the same size font as the other boxes. Wish my broadcast sheet was as clean as the one in the link below.

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

Not sure if it was stamped or printed but one 69 Chevelle had two build sheets and the larger number is positioned the same on both. Did they make copies of the build sheets or run them off a printer for each assembly station?

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

Instead of a stamp, what about something like a time card machine?? That way the location could be predetermined.

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

Joe,

There were MANY copies of the sheets floating around. The article said that as bodies left paint they were re-sequenced and that new SEQ number was transmitted to the cushion room, for example. So when guy built seats had a constant flow of Fisher Body sheets. He would make the seats, put them on a cart in SEQ order, and stuff the sheet in the springs of the seat. When the body came down the trim line the worker looked at the SEQ number on the body and pulled the seat with the same SEQ number sheet. At this stage the SEQ numbers would be in order. It was inferred that is was that same on the GM side. Greg

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

Jeff, You are talking about the Freemont Broadcast Sheet which were of the new style in 69, while the Leeds Broadcast Copy were the old style in 69.

I think the new style were stamped with a timeclock style machine. Which means the Freemont Chevelles may have received the VIN on the GM side not at Fisher Body.

The Camaros and the Novas still used the old style in 69 as did the Novas in 70. Greg

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

Another thought on the 283XXX 07E with standard paint . The Order of Run was created days in advance to allow material for production to be released, and to give stockmen time to supply the line. If a shortage was found after the Order was established and body numbers assigned, but before the body was started the car could be built later with the original body number. At this point it was just a plate in a box.

How does the non COPO chevelles VIN to Body dates compare to the COPO VINs? Are the 7E's and exception or are the special paint cars the exception? Greg

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

So, which is a better indicator of the actual build date of a car: the vin# or the body#? According to the list I posted on the first page, the cars are in order by vin# and build date, but not body#. Is one a better indicator than the other? Is it a coincidence these vin#'s fall in order?

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

Rob, I would think that supports the VIN number being assigned at the same time that the trim tag was stamped with the date. So (based on these few numbers) yes VIN is a better indicator of date than Body Number. Greg

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

The VIN on a 1969 Chevelle is stamped below the heater box round hole on the firewall and then in an area just below the heater box area and to the right.

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

I have a collection of over 200 1970 Chevelle buildsheets.As an example of two built 10/27/69 at Kansas City Leeds plant:Chevelle#1 VIN#121991 with a Job sequence#3389 and Body#193705..........Chevelle#2 VIN#121931 with a Job sequence#3302 and Body#209554.These are both Convertibles.I have seen one Chevelle have as many as 7 buildsheet copies from the Arlington Tx.Plant.

Re: COPO Chevelle trim tag data
 

So body number and build date don't seem to be very meaningful. But the VIN, SEQ # and build date seem to have a relationship.

Re: Build process
 

I mostly agree with Greg's info.
Fisher body built the body when the car was scheduled. But for 69 Camaros, VIN's were not assigned until the car passed thru to the Chevrolet side. There, they were queued into 5 or 6 different buffer (holding) lines and sent down the main line according to the sequence (aka rotation) # assigned to the car.
Chevrolet imprinted ALL partial VINs, that's why those #'s rust, the car was already painted.
John Z has written some of this up, but it needs to get pulled together into an article.

Re: Build process
 

Kurt, would that be the Seq # that is on the broadcast sheet or a completely different sequence number? And how did the VIN get on the broadcast sheet if it wasn't known when it was rolling down the Fisher Body line? Did they assign it after it was done on the Fisher side and print out all new broadcast sheets once it was on the Chevrolet side?

Re: Build process
 

Yes, that's the sequence # on the broadcast sheets.
The broadcast sheets are only for the Chevrolet side. When the VIN was assigned, printers throughout the plant printed the sheets out.
Fisher Body was responsible for the firewall back (so seats were done by Fisher). Fisher had their own sheets and also had UOIT's. Not much Fisher paperwork around for 1st gens. [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/frown.gif[/img]

This system is still the same today. Just they have more than two forms. I have a mostly complete set from the Ford Atlanta plant, I think there are 5-6 different sheets. And every Taurus has one on top of the gas tank (kinda like LA cars). [img]/ubbthreads/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Build process
 

Our Chevelle had "233" crayoned near the top of the firewall above the fuse block. Any clues on what that meant?

Re: Build process
 

Keith, does the 233 match any of the trim tag numbers? For example is the last three digits of the number in lower right hand corner 233?

Re: Build process
 

Check the list...and the answer is "no"! Yet another mystery!

Re: Build process
 

Not really a mystery. The sequence # was (and still is) the tracking # during production. It does not show up on the cowl tag, just on broadcast sheets.