Re: Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race
 

Joe,

That's the most reasonable theory I've heard to date on the gear ratio topic. I'm going to do a little research along that line of thinking and see what turns up.

sixtiesmuscle,

I'm not sure that I'd go along with the rear axle ratio restrictions being due entirely to the durability of the differential (I do agree that it wasn't nearly as strong as a 12 bolt). If anything, the automatic transmission would be a bit easier on parts than a manual transmission. Considering the Corvette's F70 x 15 tires and independent rear suspension, you'd have a tough time getting the car to launch hard enough to grenade the differential (although I wouldn't rule out a half shaft u-joint or two!).

Rob,

Can't wait to hear what Corvette plans you have for next year's event!

Regards,

Stan

Re: Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race
 

Gentlemen; I am trying to understand some the previous posts. Anytime in the past when the mention of clones/fakes came up on this forum, the majority of people were against them, for many reasons. But now I am reading where it is OK to race one. Why is racing any different then the Supercar Reunion, Super Chevy Shows, the Camaro or Chevelle Nats, etc. How long before we see cloned Yenkos at the PSMC drags, as there are already cloned Gibb cars. What will the reaction be when MCR magazine or Speed Vision film a clone over a "real" car? It has happened at other events (ask Brian). It has been brought up about the value of the Supercars, I agree this is a concern. I think about it every time we race our Yenko Camaro. But, that is what so special about these cars. One of the best parts of the Supercar Reunion is watching these rare cars drive from the hotel to the trade center. I would rather see Brian drive his L-88 Yenko Camaro this short distance then see 50 clone L-89 Novas race. Who can forget the sound of a true Phase III Vette fire up, or the L-88 Motion Vette, Mark T. in his B-M Camaro, all of the Yenkos doing burnouts on the street. What about Greg's '67 Yenko getting sideways at the track this year, no way does a souped up L-78 Camaro compare with this. Ask anyone who was at the Gibb reunion what they remember most and it will be the rare supercars doing burnouts on the main drag of LaHarpe. Yes, I would hate to see one of these rare cars damaged, such as Ray's. But, if we do not take a few chances with our cars in public, then we are opening the door for the clones/fakes to replace us, and they will. People/media want to see them, either real or fake. It does not have to be "hard" passes, major burnouts, etc. A soft pass by Mark Hassett in his Zl-1 or Mike Riley in his Berger Camaro is way better then any "built" car running in the 12s. Is not that what these cars were built for in the beginning??? Sorry if I stepped on some toes, but that is how I feel. Bring on the REAL Supercars, not clones. Tom

Re: Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race
 

Bowtie3168,
There is now a registry for the 69 L89 Camaros. I can dig out the contact info for the keepers of it. I'd also be interested in some info on the car and I could forward the data on. [email protected] CRG

Thanks.
Kurt

Re: Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race
 

Tom;
I'll go along with that!
M

Re: Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race
 

Opinions ? Is a re-bodied car a Clone ? If a famous Musclecar shows up at your event and you know it is a Re-body do you let it in ? When a Yenko shows up that used to be a Firebird do you let it in ? Is ZL1 # 27 a ZL1 that has been re-bodied or is it a Clone. Would you let it in ? At what point are they Clones ?

Re: Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race
 

Personally, I think there is a big difference between a rebody and a clone. The rebody has the VIN and TRIM TAG plates that correspond with a real car, a clone is a copy of a car type. Anybody can clone a car, only the owner of the real car can perform a rebody.

There are some cars that are so far gone that people rebody them in order to save them. Everybody has a different definition of 'too far gone', but nonetheless it does save a valuable musclecar. I would define 'too far gone' for a sub-frame car when the structural integrity is lost due to rust damage only. I believe a tubbed car can be rebuilt, and under no circumstances do you restamp the firewall. Of course using a Firebird body to rebody a Camaro is sinful!

Unfortunately, some people think a rebody is the first alternative when restoring a car, when it should be the last. Just because you have this 'nice' or 'rustfree' car around, or can 'get' one doesn't mean that a rebody is the answer. If a car is too rough for you to handle, then let someone else restore it before you rebody a restorable car.

I would let a rebody race at the PS-Drags, but would lean against the clones.

Just a thought,
Marlin

Re: Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race
 

Marlin, WELL SAID!

Re: Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race
 

I agree with Marlin, there is a big difference between a clone and a rebody. To me, clones are no different then any other "regular" production car, OK, but not what I enjoy seeeing. On the other hand, a rebodied car has some connection to a real supercar, even if just the VIN (documented) and trim tags. With rebodied cars, the number of cars possible will not change, 69 ZL-1 Camaros, 198 1969 Yenko Camaros, 99 Yenko Chevelles, etc. With clones, there could be 1000s, such as the Cobra. As per the rebody versus replace sheetmetal issue, that is a choice the owner will have to make. I do agree that the more original sheetmetal/parts that can be used the better. To me, an all original sheetmetal/parts car is the ultimate prize. Why do you think Brian pursued his current dream car for over 20 years. And yes, a rebodied car can attend the reunion. If not, where do we draw the line, 100%, 80%, or 50% original parts. I would hate to be the one who has to determine "how real" a car is. From what I have heard, many of the restored supercars have at least some non-original sheetmetal/parts. And, to bring up another related topic, why is a rebodied car frowned upon, but it is OK to replace everything else, driveline, interior, trim etc? Original is original, whether talking sheetmetal or dash pad. Tom

Re: Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race
 

I like this discussion. More opinions please. My understanding of ZL1 # 27 is the car was bought years ago but the buyers said just send the Title and Tags. So the Tags were put on another car. Is the new car a ZL1 ? If the old car still exists with the vin # stampings on the body is it a ZL1 ? If they both showed up at a meet which one is the real car ? Are they both ?

Re: Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race
 

What are the vin and cowl tags worth for a Yenko chevelle with a clear title but no car?The car was crushed do to rust around 1980.Would this car be a clone if built and tags switched?

Re: Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race
 

I dont see how you could sit in a car with just a trim tag and VIN plate and get any feeling of it being a legitimate Super Car. If even a small piece is saved at least there would be some kindred spirit attached to it.

Re: Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race
 

I am going to throw this out for something to think about. Lets say you have this basket case Yenko, COPO, whatever your restoring. The body is wasted. Your replacing all the ft. end metal, Fenders, inners, rad. support, etc. The doors are junk usually. The quarters are junk, the floor pans, trunk pans, deck lid. You know the drill. Most of the time the chassis is saved. How much original metal is really on that restored legit car, not much. I am the last person that will even think about it,(rebodying) but sometimes there is not a good reason to fix junk. There is a issue of dollars spent to justify the end result. I do not condone it, but sometimes its the only thing to do. Would making it a parts car and eventually crushing it be any better. I dont think so.

Re: Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race
 

Micky;
I agree with you that for those owners who will not, or can not do their own restoration work will need to send it to a professional and will need to follow the 'cost/benefit' rule. I know that Brian has had to pass on an original drivetrain, 25k mile Yenko Nova because the rust was so severe that the his customer couldn't justify purchasing it.

In a case like this, I feel that the restoration shop should pass on the car - but not part it out or rebody it. A car like this should be a long-term project for an individual who will put in his own long hours for free, and restore the car for his own pleasure - regardless of how many hours or dollars he ends up spending. Many of us who do our own restorations will end up with a cost equal to or exceeding the current market value. This is usually due to the big dollars needed to secure the correct sheetmetal and parts, but we will make up for it by enjoying the car and not being afraid to damage something that we've already learned how to fix!!

I don't think I could ever 'part-out' a Yenko. It's a matter of putting the right cars into the hands of the right owners, and getting the restorations done right.

M

Re: Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race
 

mnyenko, Do you have any other info on the crushed Yenko Chevelle? What paint and interior code number is on the tag?

Re: Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race
 

Peter, all I will add to this is, it can be done right and there are ways that cars can be repaired so that no one would know right down to the smallest detail. I do not think its right, but in some cases there will be exceptions.

That being said, my Biscaynes floors are damaged from driveshaft "failures" and the rear end cover is dinged from bad gears, would I think of fixing them, no. It adds to the history.

Re: Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race
 

Micky, your forgetting some details that happen when you rebody a car. Take for example a 69 Yenko. Its trashed so you find a 69 6cyl car that is absolutely beautiful and really cheap. Perfect for a rebody. But there are certain details about the 6 cyl coupe that are different than the Yenko. Something as simple as the dual exhaust hanger welded on the drivers side frame rail. Thats 6 cyl car body isn't going to have that and its going to have to be welded on. Now it may not look original when done. So a expert may look at the car and say, "what, this car is a fake, it isn't even a factory dual exhaust car as it was modified". Thats just one little thing but a rebody takes away originality and history. My brother in law has a 69 RS/Z that has floor damage from being drag raced and parts breaking. He could put in new floors but you lose that peice of history. Of course if it was a show car you wouldn't keep the floor damaged anyway. Say the rest of the car was shot so he decides to rebody with a rust free shell. Next owner buys the car and does a check on past owners and ends up getting a hold of the original owner that says he raced the car hard and told the guy about the damaged floors and such. Owner looks under the car and the floors are perfect and original. Hmmm whats up with that, now he thinks something is fishy. The car isn't what it used to be anymore when you rebody.
Marlin, your last post was excellent. For people that pay someone else to do work I can see where the rebody would be a choice, not for me though. I know af alot of good cars that were parted because the owner got some outrageous price from a body shop to do work and so on while it wouldn't have been that bad for someone that could do the work themselves providing they had the time and ambition. The rusty Yenko Nova is a perfect example just like you mentioned. I live in MA so I have seen plenty of rusty cars and could just imagine bringing a car like that to a body man and saying how much. But if you have seen what I have gone through on cars that aren't even rare then that Yenko sounds like a great deal for the right buyer without having to part it or rebody it. I guess I am just repeating what you said but it was very well put and although I don't have a Yenko or ZL1 I have learned a great deal from this site and it was one of the few conversations I feel I could reply to without owning one of these great cars. Hopefully one day my not rare, bought pretty much as a shell, maybe a SS 396 Camaro, will someday be painted and look good. Without taking up any more time all I can say is keep the interaction coming, I'm learing alot just hanging out on the sidelines!!

Re: Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race
 

OK I agree with enough money and time you could rebody without anyone knowing. It would really have to be a high dollar car to go to such lengths and I still don't agree but I see what your saying. Glad your leaving your Biscayne as is. I think the history and character is more important than having a perfect floorboard for show. Everyone goes crazy over a cars history so why not leave a little of it there!

Re: Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race
 

I'm not sure how "interested" you guys might be in this, but I found this while checking up on the "competetion": http://buickgsca.com/ubb/Forum23/HTML/000056.html

This is a thread on the Buick GS Club of America ( http://buickgsca.com/ ). I found it while trying to find a couple of the Buick owners that I saw in Michigan, and this thread covers how some of them feel about the Pure Stock Drags. They seem to feel that the Buick's are just naturally faster than the other makes, and that they diserve more credit...any thoughts?

Re: Pure Stock Muscle Car Drag Race
 

Members of the Buick Gran Sport Club of America have been very active in the development of the "stock appearing" GS. Although they apparently detuned their cars somewhat for the Pure Stock race, most of the other modifications are not going to be visible without an engine tear down. I'm surprised that more of the Chevrolet crowd hasn't gotten into the stock appearing modifications. The Buick guys have done a lot of testing/development toward these goals.

Although the goal of the PSMCDR is to feature highly tuned pure stock vehicles, unfortunately, the trend seems to be going towards who has the fastest car. Other than getting involved in an overly complicated tech inspection, probably not much can be done.

One possibility, as previously mentioned, would be to have a pure stock class and a stock appearing class. Or, separate two classes by ET, one for the 12 sec cars, and another for the 13.00 and above.