Car is in Iowa now.

That’s where mine were!
Buddy

Interesting. I would have said this clearly shows that the tail panel wasn't full gloss. The front stripe is full gloss - look at the reflection of the camera. Same camera is barely visible in the tail panel shot, and the other reflections are not clear either.

Astute observation.

I posted the two pics together, because I had the same observation.

That's because the front stripe was painted in a different place on the paint line with a different paint altogether and then received additional cosmetic attention between reflow ovens. It was buffed with the front end.

I think the debate has been the percentage of gloss. The tail panel blackout paint is not the same as full gloss used for stripes. The degree of gloss used on tail panels I believe was about 75%. The blackout can be polished and can change to a higher gloss. There are other factors as mentioned. The bottom to me is that there were two distinct paints applied.

I thought the debate was between various survivor cars all presenting with differing shine/gloss on the rear panel?

There is no doubt at all that it was a different paint from the stripes.

Post #33 Here:

https://www.yenko.net/forum/showthre...=134256&page=4

DUCO/Magic Mirror was all Lacquer paint.

The Lacquer paint process used by GM required the application of heat to initiate the paint reflow process.

Longer exposure in the ovens or more heat resulted in better reflow characteristics and higher gloss. If the body is already warmer due to ambient temperatures, then a slight gloss adjustment was expected on the final appearance.

So what paint formula would you guys use to paint the rear panel today? The red L78 I am interested in is getting painted right now and I'd like to offer a suggestion on what paint to use. Thanks!

I've shared this photo many times before of the green L78 less than a month old. 03D so still pretty cold in NOR that time of year. If I were doing a car I'd probably mix the paint with gloss, semi gloss matte 60% mixed with 82.5% gloss and finally 18.25% flattener. :biggthumpup:

Zedder, I see you changed your avatar. Does this mean you got the car bought or wishful thinking? Congrats if so but I assume you wont see this since you probably have me on ignore.

Sorry, I don't know how to put someone on ignore. I Spoke with Darrell (the owner) yesterday and we agreed on terms (again). He is moving ahead with painting it as I posted earlier. He needs to buy a house for him and his new wife, so I believe he is serious. That said, I've been trying to buy it for 16 years and we know how that went!

I've started buying parts for the car - nothing too serious, but I'm proceeding like I will be the next owner. He wouldn't take a deposit from me despite my offering.

Fingers crossed. Maybe you need to close him a little lol.

Thanks John. I'm honestly ok either way. If I get it great, if not, there is always another car.

At the rate he is painting it, it will be summer before it is ready anyway and my fingers are crossed that he does a good job.

Maybe help him to find a house. That may light the fire under him!!

That is a very odd situation. Hope it comes together for you.

Thanks Tony. He is just a bit of an odd duck that does things his way. He's owned the car for 30 years, so who am I to rush him :)

Or to judge him.. We all are a little different... Sometimes folks process and interpret things differently.. Seek to understand than to be understood. :smirk:

We southern folk are set in our ways. You push us too much we will tell you to kick rocks. But in a harsher manner.

I have definitely seen people arguing that the rear could be full gloss.
I agree, it's two different paints.

All orig. cars sitting next to each other.

:Can-I-Have-It::CharleySucks:Show off..

They are not Charley's. He sharing some of the most unmolested survivor blackout examples known to exist for reference.

Eh he still sucks.. :Charley::Charley:

I know zilch about details on these Camaros, but just throwing it out, FWIW, on '67 Chevelles the rear blackout can vary plant to plant (five plants). Same with firewall blackout. Some plants sprayed the tail panel black before body color, some black over body color.

Ok, I need to chime in also as I have seen other conversations in other threads talking about the black painted areas on GM muscle cars, especially the tail panel.

I’m another guy that knows little about the Camaro and the Chevelle.

My expertise are the early GTO’s (65-66-67).
They were also manufactured at 5 different plants that can result in variations in paint finish.

The reasons below will determine the “shade” of black seen on an Original Factory lacquer paint.

1) The plant and their pace / quality control used at that plant.
2) The guy behind the spray gun on a particular day. Sober or not. Was it applied thick or thin?
3) The environment a particular car has endured for 55+ years. Was the tail panel subjected to sunlight for a period of time?
Where was it kept - Dry, Damp, Cleaned/Waxed on a regular bases as the Owners Guide suggest? Is there any minute lacquer check?
4) On the GTO’s they called for a 60 degree gloss in certain areas. What the heck is 60 degrees? Satin?

Personally, I think the consistency, or lack of, on this “black paint” topic will never be resolved.

Cheers 🍺

the black out on some of the wheels seemed to have variations in paint finish also

Maybe they were requiring the ambient temp to be at least 60°F for the paint to be applied. That's a guess.




AMEN! It's funny how everyone wants to be right or wants to prove others wrong. Who really cares? Paint it what YOU think it should be and get the car finish and enjoy the damn thing. Life's too short.

Well here it is. The best evidence you can get. We trust survivors for literally everything else, fits, finishes, numbers, dates, photographs, data, and the people who did the work. Say what you want about Lillard but he follows where the facts lead.


As is human nature there is always the motivation of individuals with skin in the game with perfect interpretively restored cars.

I have seen people who otherwise should be fast friends become bitter because of the competition between who's interpretive restoration is more "correct" when in reality both examples are prefect examples of a custom car.

These are nearly always consensus built restorations.

A person who restores a consensus car (and the system that created the consensus determination in the first place) is typically the toughest to change when the facts are presented.

Why? because money is involved.

Each and every time at MCACN when I had the Norwood ambassadors with me and we approached a show perfect restoration -- the owners who were present with the car became disinterested in speaking to them when near their cars. This phenomenon literally became the "elephant in the room" later at dinner as a discussion point between the group.

The agreement between the Norwood workers was universal.

Each restored car was no longer original because the fit and finish and attention to detail vastly exceeded anything built within the factory and the people who own these cars literally do not want to hear that.

So yea I agree "get the car finished and enjoy the damn thing" but the survivors will always tell all of us the truth whether we desire to believe it or not.

Holy shit.. Has hell frozen over? I can't believe I'm actually typing this but I agree with you for once (maybe twice now).. The best thing for everyone is to agree to disagree and move on. Paint it 25% flat mixed with 83.264867% gloss mix in a little matte and finish it with 1/2 cup of "this looks about right" and pray the boogeymen don't get you at the next car show.. :beers:

I am just as passionate as the next guy when it comes to survivors but none of them were built 100% exactly the same which makes every car unique and another reason why I enjoy the hobby. The seriousness and the money driver (as you mentioned) has ruined the hobby for the "normal" guy. So to your comment about the workers of NOR. I don't doubt they are a wealth of knowledge but like anything its been 50+ years and I don't expect them to have every detail in their memory banks. Hell I couldn't tell you what I ate for breakfast yesterday.. Best thing to do is take in as much data as you can and make your own judgement on things and stop listening to the noise and as I said before, enjoy it. Not to derail this thread any further but I also believe this world has become very toxic with the social media platforms and even car forums. Yes there is good with the bad but if everyone would sit those phones down and get out in the garage or take a drive in their favorite car things would get better overall. Maybe not. That's why I joke around as much as I do because you get enough seriousness from your local news station and I wanna come to places like this and CRG to learn, joke and to unwind. Enough about that bullshit. Lets see some more survivor photos of those cars Charley!! And I still think you suck.. :grin:

Can't agree more with 70 copo, as a owner of 3 unrestored GTO's fit and finish is far from a restored car. In 2008 I brought my 70 to the GTO Nationals in the concourse unrestored class, and never did a show of this caliber of cars, I looked around and it was eye candy galore. I even still had the slicks on my car. Then a gentleman, John Sawruk (POntiac Historian) approached me and introduced himself and talked about my car. He pointed out many interesting facts pertaining to my car. Anyway the next day he asked if he can do a walk around with many of the high end restorers. He actually told them that the car was painted in two buildings, the front end in one and the tub in another, and said how the paint varies, with that he asked me to remove the original Uniroyal and mat to point out my trunk area under the mat, it was "never" painted as they new the mat would cover that area. Restored is restored and original will always be original with all the flaws! Everyone has an opinion on what is right & wrong, but if you like it, thats all that matters at the end.

We agree on many things and always have AND I agree with the CRG on many things and always have.

Look at my signature line and tell me where we are at in the three step process now?

It is tough to shift the established paradigm towards the truth and the pioneers always take the arrows -- but I suspect we will get there TOGETHER perhaps even as friends.:flag:

Don't get your hopes up.. :Charley:

Well, that's a start.:beers:

God you guys are long winded.......

An interesting subject on Pontiacs and funny story about it. My father bought his 69 GTO brand new and still owns it. His came factory with a blacked out tail panel, built in Baltimore. It's mainly hidden under the decklid so it preserves well. It's not full gloss by the way :wink:

In the 90's there was little known about it back then. At a big Pontiac show there was a guy (I'll leave his name out) that was an editor of a very popular Pontiac magazine during that time, that felt compelled to come up and tell dad that black out isn't even supposed to be there. He was very adamant about it, right up until dad told him he bought the car new and it has always been there, and even has baby pictures of the car in 69 showing it. He still refused to believe and walked away. He wasn't very nice about it to say the least.
So a couple years later the monthly issue of that mag comes out, (dad was a subscriber) and sure enough, he had now written an article about it, stating how Baltimore was the only plant doing black out at that time on early production 69's. Later that year we were at the Tri-Power Nats with the car and dad ran across this guy. Of course he had to walk up and mention how he noticed he has now written an article about the black out panel on 69's. Even after a couple years had passed this guy still seemed bitter about it. Never understood why. Maybe didn't enjoy being wrong about it?? Dad just said "I told ya so" and walked away. LOL Now it's widely accepted to see 69's with it, at least Baltimore built cars within the first few months.

Yes, paint varies.

Im sure most on this site are aware of the front clip being painted separately from the rest of the body, which sometimes results in not a perfect color match.

My 1965 GTO is an example of this. Although it’s difficult for the untrained eye to notice, I see the factory Mayfair Maize paint is a shade darker on the front clip.

Factory character from the Baltimore plant.

PS, check out the guy doing pull-ups with the sway bar.

Nice, even got some orange peel looks like. Those are some honest pics.

Would like to say I enjoyed the 67 Camaro pics that started this thread. I do kind hate seeing it without those cool wheels it had on it. Redline tires would have been nice on those wheels.
Original owner had the right idea as far as I am concerned.