I know this divides car communities, but personally I really can't see why any reproduction documentation is acceptable, in any circumstances; your car either has (genuine) original docs, or it doesn't.

Watermark
 

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67 vette
 

i dont see why the guy needed those fake documents for a 390 horse car. Was it a small block car originally? a 390 isnt exactly a rare car. Like over 5000 production. Whats was the point ? Yes original docs are great. but for a 390 ??

Because they're nice conversation pieces at gatherings like car shows & cruises.They should be used for display purposes only & not to validate a vehicle.I display a repro window sticker on the passenger side of my Chevelles' windshield,and it draws people over to talk.We're all getting older,and todays generation is clueless what these things cost back then.They like to see what was an extra cost option,and what was not.
Also,it's hard to see the specific transmission callout or the ratio of the rear end on a car sitting still,but they can on a window sticker,as well as the Horsepower of the engine in some cases,and the dealership it was sold at too.
Repro docs help to understand the car better,and should always be disclosed as repro.
Like I said earlier,tear them up the day you sell the vehicle so it can't come back to haunt you later.Let the new buyer order a new repop from Paul.Overall it just helps explain the car better & makes it all come together,which in turn draws people together.

Paul, from what I have seen you offer a very reputable product and do not yourself try to deceive anyone. I think it is usually the next guy down the line we have to worry about, not the original purchaser. It is great that you watermark the documents but as Charley has said, nothing is stopping anyone from copying the document and passing it along as real. As I have said before, I feel the best way to keep people from using your service in a deceptive way is to post all the VIN's as well as the car's information (even if partial but with enough information to know which car for comparisons sake) as well as which documents were made for said vehicle on your own existing site. I inspect dozens of cars each year and waste a lot of my time and the customer's money inspecting a car only to find a reproduction (fake) document. If there was a site available that I could look on before we went any further it would help a lot of people. That being said you have been very helpful and forthright when I have contacted you and asked if a specific document was one of yours.

I understand the privacy issue but go beyond that and believe that if people are trying to keep it quiet there is usually a good reason for that and it is usually not a good one.

Actually 390 and 435 production were virtually the same, 3,832 vs 3,754.

A red 390 roadster with sidepipes is not an inexpensive car. One with paperwork, original engine and judging history will bring $150,000 easily.

So for 'conversation' purposes why try to mimic the appearance of a genuine document? You could easily type up a simple one-page sheet of paper that lists out all the options, selling dealer etc, and display that - and NOBODY is ever going to be taken into thinking that's genuine provenance.

Took the words out of my mouth.

Mr.70 - I completely disagree.

Dan

NCRS explanation
 

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Paul, I'm not part of the NCRS community so I can't answer your specific question, other than to say opinions and official stances of all organisations are (and should be) subject to review and change, that is how constant improvement works. Perhaps an increase in misrepresentation (intentional or not) of something originally well-intended became apparent and caused a rethink to limit the inadvertent damage done?

They do... main to wall in one generation and need the paintings to match.

Finally
 

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Very interesting thread.

I wanted to make one point I felt was worth the space.

I’d like to point out that yes, there are some on this thread and board (and others for $100) who could help someone ID fake docs and cowl tags, etc., but for the most part the general public has no knowledge of any of them. Many people are naive, and the others who seek out help don’t know who the “good” helpers are and who aren’t.

Thankfully I’m blessed to have 3 good buddies that help me on a regular basis, and they’ve even referred me to a couple more on here in a couple instances.

But, my first rodeo was with a Shelby and I googled for an appraiser and came across what appeared to be just what I needed...boy was I mistaken and as another poster pointed out, it could have led to me being jaded by this hobby and never having anything to do with it again. Thankfully it was a great car even though it was a terrible “appraiser” and I dodged a big bullet.

My main point is this...I believe most people would invest $100 to be sure about their 50k+ investment if they only knew that option existed with a great source.

Thanks to you all.
Kasey

Darn, I knew it was NCRS’s fault, it always is, they don’t judge paper never have probably never will. In fact to display paper it has to have their validation.

Bloomington is the organization that requires paperwork or you lose points.

As far as advertisers, I think you will find that somewhere around 2010 they stopped alllwing the fraudulent ads, a board of directors that serves two years and changes could be and in some cases was clueless to who the bad apples were or still are.

But your right it’s their fault, not yours. They make you do it. I get it.

Roy

Speaking of repro corvette docs, here's an old repro window sticker the seller thinks is real.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1967-CORVET...IAAOSwA4Ba9DUe

Very interesting thread. Im very curious as to how you can tell this doc is a fake? Just trying to learn.

I bought a 1969 NOVA SS L-48 with no docs that confirm what it is.

I did however find the Fisher body sheet in the back seat with L-48 on it. I would assume this helps some?

For one thing, they spelled Manhattan wrong! haha. I've seen so many of these documents over the last 20 years, I can usually tell at first glance without thoroughly analyzing it. Guess I've developed a knack for it. There are some members on here that send me doc pics when they have questions about them being originals. I'm also happy to help if anyone needs assistance. Paul is excellent at it as well.

This is what I found in my Nova.

Unsuspecting buyers with repro documents
 

FWIW The fonts do not look correct either. Not to mention it does not state what color the car is.

Bill

Question....

Not being critical here, but regarding TAR6569 and I'm assuming Bill's comments on the window sticker posted by TAR

Can we really be sure of fake documents because of misspellings? I mean these were typed by normal people and mistakes did happen. Seems like fonts aren't a definite either since it would seem obvious to me they weren't all typed up on the same machine. Or are you speaking of fonts from the few words that are ink printed on the page?

For my piece of mind and to be absolutely 100% certain, are there better ways to weed out the fakes that takes human error out of the equation?

Because at this point in time, as far as docs go, and the amount of docs being called fake this day and age, I just don't put much faith, or value, in any paper documention for Chevrolets these days.

I should be clear, I'm not asking for secrets and if that question is asking to reveal them, don't answer. I just want to try and understand that the so called experts that are pointing out fakes are basing their assumption on more than just a misspelling of a word. Because for my piece of mind, I would need more than that to convince me.

Thanks,
Larry

Wasn't it also common for the actual dealer to type up a window sticker ?

Why restore an old car with reproduction parts mirroring the original used by the factory when it was sold brand new?...Because that best resembles how it looked when it was sold brand new.
If they just came with "a simple one-page sheet of paper that lists out all the options,selling dealer etc," then they'd do that today too.

During an NCRS technical event a few weeks ago, Grenning shared photos of not only dealer errors but also factory errors on documents, trim tags, vin tags and even engine stamps. Human error is not a good metric for determining authenticity. Font style and type, maybe...

Unsuspecting buyers with repro documents
 

The ebay listed window sticker has no indication of color for the car listed. Every REAL 1967 Corvette window sticker I ever saw had the color of the car on it, that's what I remember, but I am old, so take it for what it's worth. Just offering an Opinion, and you know what those are like.

Bill

Thanks Charley. That's what I was thinking, hence the reason for my question.

Those were my thoughts. Since we already know of mis-stamped trim tags and the like. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't out in left field someplace. Thanks MosportGreen66.

Was not my intention to discredit you in any way. Matter of fact, what you point out does make one want to look closer at the window sticker and scrutinize.
My reasoning was that there are so many documents now pointed out as fakes and people using spelling or misprints as reasoning, I'm starting to wonder if real ones now have been mistakenly considered fake.
My father still has all his paper work for his 69 GTO he bought new (and still owns) I'm now half tempted to pull it all out and start combing it over for discrepancies, lol.

The dealer never typed up the window sticker. That was something done at the plant or maybe the zone office. Only a few times have I seen a real typed window sticker. Usually it was for a car that was used in company service. Could have been so the sticker shows the dealer same up top instead of the zone office. Or could have been to get the sticker down to 1 page from 2 if it was loaded with options (and being sold through a Chevy dealer). I suppose it could have been used to fix a mistake too if it was that big of a problem.

The fonts are something I usually pick up on. The printed font is very distinctive to my eyes. I can usually tell if someone tried to type it on a line or used a regular printer. The typed stickers I have seen all used the same typeface from what I recall.

This vette sticker doesn't have the exception codes either, which would have been on there, even if it was originally typed. No dealer codes, and yes, it should have the paint and interior listed.

I think I would have enjoyed that technical event. I remember seeing a misspelling on a original window sticker once, some time ago. Not sure if I've seen another. I'd definitely look closer if it had a mistake. Do you remember what types of errors were on the documents? I've seen errors on vin and cowl tags. Saw a Wagon with a four door sedan vin tag once. Was factory. Also, a 16437 Impala that had a 16447 vin.

Pontiac Motor Division went the entire 1964 model year with the Sales Code 644 description "FAN HEAVEY DUTY" on the window stickers.

K

Fake docs are problematic because they appear credible to all but a few experts. Just read threads like this one to see knowledgeable people who have been around these cars much of their life, genuinely asking how to spot the subtleties of a good fake.
Reproduction parts don't offer a sense of immediate credibility, and only hint at what a car may, or may not, be - further diligence and appraisal is still required.

Dealers did type up window stickers. They weren't supposed to, but they did.

Sometimes a car hung around a dealer for months, driven by the dealer owner, maybe a demo car, and sometimes they would remove the window sticker for safety's sake because it blocks your view. You can imagine there were times when that window sticker would be lost, and the dealer was supposed to request a new one from Zone, but some dealers simply loaded up a blank window sticker and had the dealer secretary or cashier type up a new one.

I keep a database of all the factory mistakes made on 1962-1981 Pontiac window stickers. Most are spelling mistakes, some subtle, others quite embarrassing. Sometimes Pontiac corrected the error the following year, other times the error stuck around for several years. It also varied by plant as to how options were formatted and terminology.

Mike

Where would get the blank form from? From the dealer demo's I have seen, they simply typed up the options on the dealer invoice or used the car shipper document if the prospective buyer wanted to know the equipment.

It seems like it would be a lot of work for the dealer to type one up correctly as you have to know the standard equipment. I'd love to see one.

I have a couple original 1969 Pontiac blanks, with the carbon paper and backing intact, along with the perforated ears from the tractor feed paper.

The Zone Office, as well as dealerships, were not as careful about accuracy as we would expect. When a window sticker was supposed to be reprinted, they used the punched card to feed the printer. I think occasionally they couldn't locate the card so they simply stuck a window sticker blank into a typewriter and called it a day. The typewriter versions I've seen are usually pretty accurate and follow the formatting for that particular plant.

Aside from typos on factory window stickers, I also have a few other examples where there are handwritten notes (dated) stating that the window sticker was reprinted for a specific reason. One was for a billing error, another was for a transmission change. Some dealers bent over backwards to make the sale, and if some guy wanted a Lucerne Blue 1971 GTO that was on the lot, and he wanted it today, but the deal breaker was that it had Rally II Wheels instead of Honeycomb Wheels, a salesman would locate another vehicle on the lot with Honeycombs and have them swapped out. Anything to make a sale. I believe in those cases the dealership may type up their own window sticker to reflect the change.

Mike

Request a new one from Zone leads one to believe there is a data set with the VIN numbers corresponding to the option list for said VIN.

My earlier repro parts reply was to when you asked,"why mimic the appearance of an original document?"..I never said anything about reproduction parts offering any credibility to a vehicle.

Reproduction display docs should be destroyed by the owner before re-sale.

^ Or better, in my opinion, not exist at all.
I respect your views, perhaps we can agree to disagree.

Tim, my position - I will never agree with any aspect of our hobby that cognitively or not perpetuates fraud. Period.

Dan

Maybe we should just stick to collecting Pontiacs and Fords. :grin: At least Jim Mattison and Kevin Marti offer the real deal.