Honestly, I think most of us are in agreement. We're just saying there's nothing wrong with having repro docs for show and personal enjoyment purposes. The problem is when it becomes a counterfeiting issue. As many have brought up time and time again, there are always going to be counterfeiters in everything that has profits attached to it. If anyone thinks stopping these few sellers is going to change anything, I think they're mistaken. It's way too easy in the computer age to recreate any documents.

If these reproduction paperwork sellers want to work with the car community and be on the up and up as well as not condone fraudulent use of their work, I would say the best thing to do on their webpages is to list every VIN of every car that they have made paperwork documents, POPs or cowl tags for. No invasion of privacy here, just a list of the VIN's and what was produced. No harm no fowl. However, when that is suggested everyone freaks out and says no way. Why is that? What are they trying to hide?

Some of this paperwork is getting extremely hard to prove is a reproduction as these guys are getting that good. Now a buyer hires an inspector to inspect a potential purchase and the inspector gives his thumbs up on the car and the paperwork only to find out later that the paperwork was faked. Now we have a liability issue as the inspection gave a letter of authenticity.

If there was a database then all that would have to be done is to look on that database to see that those items were reproductions. Since the reproducer of the paperwork claims they are not trying in any way to be fraudulent and the owner of the car and it's new paperwork claim they only want a facsimile of what GM offered for show purposes, I just cannot understand why no one wants these VIN's to be made public to protect future buyers.

The last thing that troubles me is all these fake pieces or paper are having an effect on cars that have legitimate paperwork and their value. I personally inspect dozens of LS6's around the country every year and have gotten to the point that I don't even want to see your window sticker, dealer invoice or POP as many of the reproductions are so good that you cannot tell the difference so in turn the real items have very little meaning or value anymore.

Bottom line is, if you want a facsimile of paperwork that could have been offered with your car, that is cool. Not wanting to admit that it is a reproduction, having it watermarked as such or having the information made public only shows me that you have something to hide. It is sort of like engine stamps. I would much rather see a CE block in a car than a restamped engine. A CE block leaves nothing to hide whereas a restamped block only puts up a red flag that there may be many other things about the car that are fraudulent.

Flame away.

No flame here Rick. I agree with you completely. I do inspections and documentations as well and I'm afraid I might not be able to spot a good repro document (they are getting THAT good). I also have a car with its original docs and I'm afraid if I try to sell it, the docs won't add to the value as they should. And that's a real shame.

It's akin to someone creating fake DNA in a test tube. Then no one can believe the real DNA anymore.

Verne

Not a flame, but to assume someone has something to hide because they might like to stay private is a slippery slope in the land of the free. That's the same mentality as the folks assuming someone wants to go on a killing rampage because they don't want to register their firearms. Spend your time going after the counterfeiters and other criminals, not guys you have no idea about. Or not...

I create reproduction window stickers for 1964-1979 Pontiacs. My window stickers are far more accurate than anything Pontiac fans have had before. I developed my own forms because other reproductions (that are laminated) use a somewhat generic window sticker blank, and sometimes they cover 3 different years with one form. As owners of high end Pontiac show cars become aware of the fact that their reproduction window stickers are inaccurate, they contact me and I create an accurate window sticker for them that's correct for the specific year, model, and plant where their Pontiac was produced. That being said, my reproduction window stickers are for show, NOT to be used to authenticate or validate anything. Thankfully, we have PHS as the rock solid proof against any dishonesty. But there is no way I can control what people do with a reproduction window sticker once they receive them.

However, on my window stickers, I have a very minor deviation from original that tells me immediately it's one of my reproductions and not an original just in case someone tries to age one of my reproductions. I do not disclose what that deviation is, but I have responded to many people asking if a specific window sticker on a car that's being sold is an original or a repop.

For those opposed to Chevrolet reproduction window stickers and docs, this seems to be a minor issue when you have hundreds of restamped blocks, carbs, rear ends, and all sorts of "date coding" going on with restored Yenkos, COPOS, and LS6 cars. Most high end resto shops have no problem restamping a block or carb to complete a "numbers matching" project.

Mike

Posting a car's VIN or at least enough information so that it can be compared to a car in question in no way discloses their personal information nor is it compromised in any way. I also do not believe it should be disclosed in any way nor was I implying that. However, the privacy of the car and/or it's paperwork should be public with regards to fake paperwork. We do that right here on the Yenko board with regards to Yenko VIN's, dealer info, paint color, transmission type and other information and no harm or compromised owner information what so ever. Actually quite the opposite.

I had a reproduction window sticker back in the 90's and in very small print it said "reproduction". I was not trying to make it into anything other than what it was. I have watched these car's reputations slip away over the last several years as many people have just gotten fed up with all the fraudulent things that are being done to this hobby and it sucks. I hear it every day from car owners that no longer have fun in the hobby and just want out. Reality and life's changes yes but it does not mean we should all just shrug it off and become complacent with it. I have NO issues with people creating reproduction cowl tags, window stickers, invoices, buildsheets, whatever, as long as they are upfront about it and most importantly, it is NOT the creator or the purchaser I am worried about, it is the next guy in line that gets screwed.

You make some great points Rick, but if the guys are getting out of the hobby because it's not fun any more to them based on the financial aspect of it, I don't think they ever really got it in the first place. That's a discussion for another thread though. Most of us look at these cars as more than just an investment. I know that's not all of us considering the dollars that are involved and I can appreciate that.
I don't want to see original cars not get the respect they deserve because in the back of everyone's mind they don't know if it's real or not. This is one of the reasons I don't care for clones. Back to my original point. Go after the con artists and counterfeiters and fry them. Make it something that's not worth doing anymore. Take action instead of everyone just looking at a known car rolling across the auction block while everyone just shakes their head and complains about it on the internet. Don't get me wrong, I know putting it on the net helps stop possible future issues for someone that actually vets their purchases...

What is the difference between say someone like me that has a "clone" car (my 67 car if anyone didnt know by now) and you having a repop window sticker? :hmmm:

Thats a serious question Darrell? You've been around plenty long enough to know the difference... My laminated piece of printer paper would maybe get one over on a kindegardener, but that's about it. It's in a filing cabinet in my basement. My car has been verified original many times over, so this particular piece of paper means nothing to anyone, but me.

Hell yes its a serious question. YOU wont be the last person that owns that car (unless you are buried in it).. You are only the care taker for the next generation or owner. Im not saying you are gonna be the one that will deceive. But you will have NO control of what happens after you are dead and gone.


I am using you and I as examples because we are doing the talking currently.

Regardless what anyone thinks about all of this.. As long as there is money to be made things will be reproduced or faked. Thats just the way it is..

You are absolutely correct Darrell but that does not mean we cannot police our own people a little better or try to get them to conform a little better (like the producers of products) to try and keep things a little more legit. After all, if we do not buy they do not sell. If we just throw up our hands every time someone commits fraud they will win every time. I have already helped put one guy in jail for building a fake LS6 and passing it off as one, am involved in a lawsuit of another and will do it again without batting an eye.

I lose a little money every year because I do not allow fake cars in my shop. If some of these producers kept things on the up and up (making VIN's available) they would lose a little business as well to those people that are knowingly trying to pass something off and don't want to get caught. I guess my reputation and honor is more valuable than the dollar so maybe I sit alone on these thoughts.

Rick dont worry. Im not throwing my hands up. Im just trying to take notes and trying to keep track and keep up.. :wink:

Reproduction Documents
 

I have refrained from chiming in as this is a topic because people are very passionate about this subject.
Let's be rationale about this and try to separate the people that will create documents for any car regardless of its rarity or obscurity as long as they see green from the people that actually check into these rare and high value cars and ensure they are what they say. If not, advise the customer the documents will all have watermarks on them unless the information can be corroborated.
Let's also separate the people who will answer anyone who asks as to whether documents they come across are in fact their reproductions. Let's also separate the people who help others identify reproduction documents whenever they are asked whether theirs or someone else’s. Now let's look at the majority of the reproduction documents that are advertised as authentic and who is reproducing those. Let's also look at who reproduces documents that are never found on sites selling cars advertising the docs to be authentic.
When a person knows that the reproduction company will never authenticate their own documents it acts as a deterrent to advertise these docs as real.
We cannot just pile everyone in the same barrel and declare them all as frauds or persons that are helping perpetuate fraud.
I will never make any real money doing this because I think we all know where the real money is.
It would be nice to have a Reproduction business advertised in the GM Heritage documents of various makes and models like another company. It would be nice to be listed as a recommended and paid vendor on various NCRS sites also…..
But for small businesses that are more hobbyists than businesses that will probably never happen.
No One is going to provide a list of VINs of car they have worked on documents for but I also doubt other companies out there would state that they would also help identify any of the documents they have reproduced and identify them as such.
So, let’s please try to separate companies out there, there are vast differences in the manner in which we conduct our businesses.
I maintain ethics and integrity in what I do and wish all the other companies would do the same. I turn down at least 20% of orders I receive knowing the cars are clones advertised as authentic. It’s great having experts in each model to corroborate with to ensure cars are what they are purported to be or not to be. We also have some great sites which I regularly visit where advertised cars are called out as being fakes, clones, frauds, etc. to keep an eye out for.
Now I suspect I opened a can of worms but I stand behind what I do so let’s see where this goes.

Paul

Thanks for chiming in Paul. You have always been very helpful to me when I have contacted you regarding documents that I have come across and for that I thank you.
Rick

Thanks Rick
 

And I completely support all you do to bring integrity to this great hobby. I wish all the other restoration shops were as vigilant as you are, exemplifying high level of ethics within your business.

Paul

The work Paul just did for me was for my 67 Impala. I have the original protecto plate and owner's manual for the car but that was it for original documents. The original owner who I bought the car from did not save the window sticker. The one Paul made for me was basically an exact duplicate of the original and included all options for the car. Nothing was deviated from what the car actually is. The original owner really "got a kick" of the reproduction window sticker and basically authenticated it, even corroborating the actual cost.

Now IF I sold the car I would include this window sticker with the sale of the car and of course not say that it was the "real deal" but that it is as close as it gets to same. This plus the fact that it is just a neat item to have with the car is basically why I had Paul make the sticker and might I add did a fine job with it...

Rich

I have a Triple A reproduction window sticker for my Chevelle,that I display at shows/cruises,for the uniformed to understand what options it came with originally & what they cost.
Without it,many of them would never spot the details my car has like an L-78,TH-400,Tach,4.10 posi or in dash 8tk tape player.The fact that the Magnum 500 (SS) wheels were included seems to also be real conversation piece with many.
But the prices these options cost back then are the real head turner,which they always seem to point to and call out while looking at it.
I tell all while looking @ it,it's not the original WS also.

But this window sticker starts & ends with me,as the day I sell my car,I'm shredding it up.If the new owner wants one,he can just submit the info from the Original build sheet like I did & have one made up too.I wish more owners would do the same,as well as it would increase business for people like Paul & Mike. ;)

I don't know if this will help but let me offer an analogy . . .

I have a collection of books - well over 1000 hardcover books - all fiction. Books can be like cars - they are scored based in their condition, if they are a First Edition and did the author sign the book. A few of my books are worth well over $500 each because they have all three: excellent condition, First Edition and the author's signature. These books are 30 to 40 years old.

Many times a new author will get a limited printing of his/her first book. This means that all copies are First Editions so that criteria no longer applies.

So here is what I want to do - you tell me if I am being unethical . . .

I have a good (not excellent) condition book from a VERY popular author. It's his first book. I want to go to a book signing where he will be present signing his latest book and get him to sign my collectors book. By doing so it will raise the value of the book from $500 to $2500.

Once signed there is no way to tell he didn't sign it 40 years ago when the book first came out. Remember - it's HIS signature, not a forgery.

Oh . . . BTW . . . I paid 50 cents for the book at a yard sale 25 years ago.

That extra $2000 would mean a lot to me. I could really use it.

Ethical? Unethical?

Test of Ethicality
 

Very good Lee, so follow me here. Let's use a similar scenario that we are all familiar with, sports. You have an old baseball and get one of the old players to sign it. There are always at sport shows and charge for each autograph. You get your old ball signed and pay the baseball player. Is the baseball player a fraud and is he perpetuating fraud for signing an old ball knowing full well that he now brought increased value to the ball? I think not. Now, if you try to sell the ball and give the impression that the ball was signed years ago making it even more valuable, then you fail the integrity test and ethics test, now don't you.

Paul

Sure - you would fail . . . but you would also have an old baseball signed by an old pro just like I would have Mr. Author's very first book . . . in hardcover, in good condition, a First Edition signed by Mr. Author himself whose signature (like your old pro) can be verified by a signature expert.

Books like this don't come up for sale very often you know. Here is a chance to own one especially if you are an avid fan of Mr. Author. The price is a reasonable $2500 and I will guarantee in writing that the signature is his or I will refund 100% your money plus your shipping expense.

The lure of easy money skirting a very fine line - hard to resist isn't it?

Caveat Emptor
 

Yep, Lee but you nor I would do that. Unethical people will practice unethical behavior and that will always be the issue here. I wish more people would be cognizant of what they are buying and check things out before they purchase. But greed and selfishness act as catalysts to a fast buck for some people if when it's too good to be true.

Me

Maybe I don't quite understand the value of a Window Sticker when it comes to the pedigree of a car. How much emphasis is placed on having a real one if that is the only documentation that goes with the car? Oh sure - I understand what it shows but I would think that other documentation like the Build Sheet would be more valuable. Isn't that like a car's "Birth Certificate?"

There will never be a "meeting of the minds" on the issue of reproduction Window Stickers. Like many things in life, what is created for show and enjoyment purposes can be used to defraud the unsuspecting and uneducated.

The condoning of this practice in the wider hobby and attempts to justify it as harmless seem starkly in contrast with the generally-accepted attitude towards other aspects like restamping, changing trim tags, rebodying (to defraud rather than restore). I respect the rights of others to do as they see fit, but I'll never understand the 'for' argument.
If a reproduction window sticker is created only for showing, or the owner's enjoyment (whatever that means), why is it so important that it be as close to an original as possible, in appearance and content, so that it's only detectable as fake to a very few experts or the recreator?

That's why I laminated mine and didn't have it aged. I didn't need an exact replica and wasn't trying to fool anyone. Now for the difference between re-stamping and the window sticker I can't agree. The window sticker is a piece of paper and isn't the actual car although it is supposed to represent the car. Cloning is the attempt to make something that isn't in anyway shape or form one thing, be another. L78s are the new Z28 by the looks of things. They're popping up all over the place. If someone wanted to put "reproduction" on the back of the document or something, I could care less, but I wouldn't want to see it on the front.
Here's a for that you guys "might" understand. A collector with real documents that likes to show his car and likes to display the documents. Do you really think he should have to bring the one of a kind, irreplaceable, originals?

What, alongside the one-of-a-kind, irreplaceable, original car that it belongs to? Yikes.
Maybe that guy could make a copy of the original window sticker and tell anyone that calls BS on it that the original is tucked away safely though. Doesn't have to pay for a fake document, and that scenario is easily comprehended by most.

I made a collage of all my documents and printed it on a 8.5" X11" and throw it on the dash. Nothing is complete enough to be copied, stolen or used by anyone else. Most people could care less, but some like the artistic touch.

BIG

The original car I would hope is a little more sturdy than a 47+ year old piece of paper, but... You are correct, a simple photocopy should suffice in that scenario.

Information
 

You have no idea how many people keep their original documents locked in safes and safe deposit boxes. They make copies and ask to have those reproduced. Additionally, people want very poor condition documents to be reproduced, especially in the case of tank stickers on corvettes. Then we get requests from people who received their information from Vintage Vehicle Services in Canada and want reproduction documents created from that report, people having build sheets and/or tank stickers that want a window sticker created, etc.

Paul

Window Stickers
 

Being my LS-6 is an Arlington built car, it is next to impossible to find a REAL Build Sheet / "Birth Certificate" being (I am told) the only place they were placed was on the passenger side floor pan prior to sound insulation and carpet installation. So if the car went through the Midwest climate of rain, salt , and snow as my car did being an Illinois delivered car, the only other documentation would be a protect-o-plate or window sicker.

So I feel the original window sticker (which I have) is the only documentation that can prove it left the factory as a Black, White stripes, Black Bucket seat, M-22, 4:10 gear car. If I was lucky enough to have the original protect-o-plate, it would prove engine, transmission, and rear axle codes but not all the options it has like the AM / Stereo 8-track radio.

If this original window sticker was not with the car when I purchased it in January 2003, I would have never purchased it being I was only looking for a documented Black / Black Bucket seat LS-6, M-22 / 4:10 gear car.

Right or wrong, anyone can build anything they want and "Put Together" paperwork to prove what they have created. But when originally built, they are only what they left the factory as. I can only hope in my lifetime Chevrolet will model a program off of PHS or Marti that will prove every Camaro, Chevelle, full size Chevrolet, Nove and Corvette. If they did, we'd all be broke from building prisons to house all the Thief's in.

They are only born original once, and have only one real "Birth Certificate".

Bill

First
Bloomington Gold Survivor / Gold / Benchmark Award June 1990 / 1991
Unrestored 1967 Lynndale L-79 Roadster

I think when it comes to offering "aged documents, that is wrong. Why not just repro them and call it that.

What about aged tires (as in original molded bias ply) and aged dated spark plug wires, and marked belts, hoses, etc etc. Should we all just get new looking parts and put them on our vintage cars? No, we want everything to look period correct, old and like it belongs to the 50 or 60 year old car that its being paired with. So why would anyone who spends thousands restoring a car with all kinds of dated, restored or NOS parts want to display a bright crispy piece of paper with the car they just poured themselves into?

Again, the issue isn't with the paper, it's with the person who with malicious intent uses it to "deceive".

I was referring to how the window sticker reproducer gives the option of aging it and making it look old. I dont think you age you tires or age your spark plug wires to make them look old? age cracks in your belts?? Put dirt on your hoses. Not sure if I have seen that.
When you "age" a document, you are deceiving IMO. Why even offer that. Spring marks and fading or yellowing.

Right - so one bad apple spoils the whole barrel. And why should the opportunity exist for that to happen? This isn't an occurrence that only happens once in a blue moon. It happens ALL THE TIME.

So by catering to the enthusiast we open the market up for the deceivers, thieves and the unscrupulous to ply their trades.

Those that sell these Window Stickers don't care. To them it's a business they can make money at. What happens after the sale has nothing to do with them as far as they are concerned.

Maybe the market should borrow the rule of law when it comes to bars serving booze to drunks who get in their cars and cause mayhem and loss. If a case of fraud comes up and it hinges on a fake aged Window Sticker let the creator of such document be held responsible . . . legally.

If there is no penalty, there is no incentive to stop.

It would also make those car with an original Window Sticker that much more valuable.

I don't follow this argument. Sounds like you're referring to a car 'restored' to look like a survivor. Most restorations end up with the car looking, well, restored - like it did when new. Same as you're doing with the X77 car, no?
And the issue of not wanting bright crispy paperwork, if someone feels the need to re-create something the car lacks, why try and disguise it by faking age? Said it before, you either have the original, or you don't.

I guess we're just all the same in the minds of some....
 

I guess no matter what is written some people will just bunch everyone together and blame everyone in this business. So, on the other side of the coin.
I received an order for a very highly optioned Chevrolet model making this a pretty valuable car. Immediately I'm suspicious about the cars authenticity. So, as I always do first, I ask if this is an original or a cloned car and are all the options factory or add-ons. The response, “yes, original drive train”. So right away, evasiveness, a red flag. Then another response, “I believe all the options are factory but don’t have a build sheet”. Another flag. So, for me, research time, thank goodness for the internet (and the experts I am associated with for each Model) . I find the car on a few sites for sale and review all the pics. Trans not original first of all, so I write back and also ask for pic of trim tag. Response: "The trans is not on the cowl tag and I guess you are not as well versed as I thought you were, seems like your expertise is in other vehicles. OK, now insults, red flags just keep coming up. I try to explain professionally, that if the car is not original I cannot create any paperwork without watermarks. I also explain that I reviewed approx. 20 pictures of the car in the ads and numerous items checked off are not on the car. He tells me I should not go by the ads and how do I know the ads are correct. Then tells me he can’t send the trim tag pic because he’s at work. This goes on back and forth, him trying to convince me all is original and I of course stick to my guns. Then it’s time for threats: he writes he is a member of a club whose members are interested in my services but now he will advise them that unless they have original documents or other proof I will not move forward. I try to explain about bringing some integrity and ethics to a business that is riddled with negativity to not avail. Next response and stating that it will be the last: “I will be posting my experience with you, and as a courtesy will provide a copy to you prior to posting if you would like a copy, you have my word it will accurately reflect my experience here” I stated that I welcome the posting and thanked him for his time.
So, I sit and ponder after reading posts about how all of us are the same and wonder why I’m never going to make any real money doing this? Why should I care about ethics, integrity and this wonderful hobby when some people are just going to bunch me in with all those others that only car about making a buck and couldn’t care less about ethics and such………..

Paul

I want to start off by saying reproduction documentation should not be displayed or represented as original in the sale of a car period.

Reproduction documentation should never be aged period! I’d like to see some watermark or identification that it is a reproduction.

Saying reproduction documents are at fault for fraud is like saying a guns kill. It’s the dishonest people who represent their cars and documentation as real who are at fault and thieves.
There are many cases where cars are reproduced by original paperwork. I remember that 69 RG RS/Z that sold at an auction as original for 120ki+ and the only things original were the documentation and VIN tag and trim tag.

To me original paperwork is icing on the cake, but the vehicle itself is what matter…. Would you rather have a handful of original documentation (POP, window sticker, buildsheet, pre-inspection) or a true original car. Yes we’d all like both, but paperwork is worthless without a genuine car. The more I learn about cars the less important the paperwork become to me.

Whether you use Paul or his services ( winvoices) or not, he is very helpful and informative when researching dealers, options, and participates quite often on this board, while not soliciting his services but helping hobbyist… Just my opinion.

I'll say it again,tear up your reproduction paper work before you sell a vehicle with such.
It will benefit the Hobby as a whole,as well as everyone involved. :)

That's probably the best post I have seen in the thread yet.

Well thought and said,

Agreed that could help to avoid misunderstanding or misrepresentation, when you previously mentioned this.
But a lot of collectors hang onto their cars for years, and a significant number only re-enter the market through deceased estates or after long-term illness. Family members won't be thinking clearly about shredding reproduction car documents at such times.
Never creating fake paperwork in the first place removes all possible doubt. Surely that's best for the overall hobby?