Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Phil...What we have <span style="font-weight: bold">here</span> is not first hand knowledge. It is being told to us by you saying a guy you know said he worked on the line. Doesn't mean it isn't correct but it can't really be positively relied upon. It could have come off the line that way but I would sure like to look at it up close. </div></div>

Charley,

That makes two of us. The first hand account of a Chassis side superintendent that ran the dog house area up on the second floor is pretty compelling however.

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

Compelling? He said it was possible. So did Bill.
Doesn't make it likely.

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

Kurt,

I agree 100%. No proof it was installed on this car.

For the sake of fairness to the car however the term compelling is approporiate as the superintendent was successful in his lucid discription of the dog house build process detail to cause me to believe and agree that cosmetic production errors of this type did happen.

So, we have the black grill myth which came from some place -- and we now have a plausible explanation as to the cause. Now that does not make it correct... however if that is what happened it is hard to argue that such a car is not &quot;original&quot; as produced from the factory.

Than again why not trust Tom's word on what he says on this specific car so we can learn more about it?

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

As one who worked on the assembly line around this time period (St. Louis not Norwood), it always frustrates me to somewhat cavalierly assume that anomalies like this were simply &quot;worker error&quot;. I was the &quot;replacement employee&quot; and did every job on the line as part of my education. I can assure you that I would never have gotten away with selecting a wrong part that was as easy to spot as a grille. The guys around me were smart &amp; cared about the product that was rolling down the line. They were like hawks, waiting for the &quot;new guy&quot; to make a mistake &amp; teasing the crap out of him! New employees weren't just thrown into production without someone keeping an eye on them (early in the shift - relief men were available). Maybe hard to believe in this day of robots, but we really did look over each other's shoulder. The line workers were acquaintances and/or friends of the inspectors and repairmen down the line - it wasn't like they were 50 miles away in another town! Mistakes created work for them &amp; they were NOT happy about it.
There are other, IMO more likely, explanations - like damage in transit, changed out later because someone thought it looked cool, etc. Also curious that the hood has been replaced - could the grille have been damaged/stolen at the same time? No disrespect to the production superintendent (I was one too). If you ask - is something &quot;possible&quot;, you get a different answer than if you ask what the more &quot;likely&quot; explanation is.
OK - sorry for the rant - had to defend my fellow employees!

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

Bergy,

Not one assumption made. I have the quality control records from the plant generated during audit. Here is the easiest page to put my hands on without digging into the storage files.

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

Love all the insights here. Maybe it's my non-confrontational nature but wouldn't it be easier to put a Silver grille in it and then never have it ever be questioned again? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Murphy442</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Love all the insights here. Maybe it's my non-confrontational nature but wouldn't it be easier to put a Silver grille in it and then never have it ever be questioned again? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img] </div></div>

Unless you have rock solid proof it came the unconventional way then yes it would make more sense to comply with what the norm would have been.

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It does a bit of a disservice to the originality portion of the discussion when normalitive practice takes priority over originality. With each consensious car that is created a bit more history is lost. </div></div>

This [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif[/img]

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

Is there any paperwork to prove that &quot;--&quot; paint code cars either did or did not receive black grills. Surely mistakes DID happen, although those mistakes are quite rare. Lots to ponder here: the hood was changed--is the header panel original paint? Maybe the grill was changed/painted when the hood swap was performed. Maybe the original owner wanted the grill black; he/she obviously wanted something out of the norm, hence the stripe delete. Maybe transit damage. Maybe a lot of things. Without proof positive, we can only speculate. The mind is a terrible thing to waste, and maybe we can learn something new here, but to learn we must be open minded.

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It does a bit of a disservice to the originality portion of the discussion when normalitive practice takes priority over originality. With each consensious car that is created a bit more history is lost. </div></div>

This [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif[/img] </div></div>



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cook_dw</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Unless you have rock solid proof</span></span> it came the unconventional way then yes it would make more sense to comply with what the norm would have been. </div></div>


[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif[/img] [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif[/img]

If what if's and buts were candy and nuts....

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Craig_Maiorana</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I would have to think that on more than a few occasions a factory anomaly managed to slip by the inspectors and make it to a customer. </div></div>



Like the 1 of 1 Factory L-89 Nova...........LOL

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

If the car is mostly orig paint and in great condition a &quot;Good&quot; grille is going to be expensive. Let's see, 2K on a NOS grille or take the chance of losing a few points if it is ever judged? With as hard as it seams to get past a abnormality or a incorrect item ( You decide) why on earth would one subject themselves to the judging? I'm sure this is a pretty cool car. Like every other Camaro on the planet, I'm sure it has sins too. Let's focus on the positives of each and then &quot;maybe&quot; more people will get involved with preserving whats left and shareing a car we may be able to take something from...... [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img]

Got any more pics of the Z ? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/3gears.gif[/img]

BIG

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

I would like to see some close up pics of the grill and hood.

What month and week was this car built?

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

Awesome car! I can feel your pain about non-conforming examples. I had a 1969 Z11 Pace Car a few years back that was a Zone show car with every option on it (excapt a big block). I even had original owner photos from the day he bought it that showed the non-conforming pinstripes around the main orange hood and trunk stripes. The gap between them was the same width as the actual pinstripe, which was noticeably different than the blue-print proportions put out by Chevrolet. That got debated quite a bit and I even lost points at a judging for it. But in the end, it didn't bother me because the orignal owner was the true judge of how the car was at the time it was deliverd as he was the ultimate witness to its status in 1969.

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

When did the standard '69 Camaro grille start being produced in a black plastic rather than the off-white we are most familiar with on original cars? The NOS grilles have been black for many years. I believe the factory RS grilles were formed in black plastic for the '69 production rather than the off-white, at least what I have seen on some original cars.

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

Tom,
Go to the back side of the grill and scratch the surface. See if there is any white under the black. The grills were molded in white and then painted argent silver, where the black grills from what i read were molded in black. At least you will be able to tell if it was painted over or not.

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

This certainly is a GREAT mostly original old car. But we also know its not &quot;untouched&quot;. It's also been through four or five hands and almost 50 years. What we do know is the hood and the front bumper are not original. If those two had not been touched and the grill was black it would be easier for me to accept it as a factory anomaly just being honest. But with an anomaly of a grill sitting directly in between two parts that are known to be non original to the car, well quite frankly it becomes a tougher sell. Its a not my car but I'd sure be proud to own it no matter how that grill wound up there! m

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: camaromb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When did the standard '69 Camaro grille start being produced in a black plastic rather than the off-white we are most familiar with on original cars? The NOS grilles have been black for many years. I believe the factory RS grilles were formed in black plastic for the '69 production rather than the off-white, at least what I have seen on some original cars. </div></div>

So did they even produce black non RS grilles back in the day?

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

Sorry JL8Tom, I hope all this grille [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/scholar.gif[/img] doesn't scare/piss you off. As our newest member with a way cool Z28, I for one would like you to stick around and show us more of it.

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

Phil - what does a copy of an outgoing quality audit that shows a bunch of fit and finish errors have to do with installing a wrong grille? Do you have audits that show wrong grille?

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bergy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> As one who worked on the assembly line around this time period (St. Louis not Norwood), it always frustrates me to somewhat cavalierly assume that anomalies like this were simply &quot;worker error&quot;. I was the &quot;replacement employee&quot; and did every job on the line as part of my education. I can assure you that I would never have gotten away with selecting a wrong part that was as easy to spot as a grille. The guys around me were smart &amp; cared about the product that was rolling down the line. They were like hawks, waiting for the &quot;new guy&quot; to make a mistake &amp; teasing the crap out of him! New employees weren't just thrown into production without someone keeping an eye on them (early in the shift - relief men were available). Maybe hard to believe in this day of robots, but we really did look over each other's shoulder. The line workers were acquaintances and/or friends of the inspectors and repairmen down the line - it wasn't like they were 50 miles away in another town! Mistakes created work for them &amp; they were NOT happy about it.
There are other, IMO more likely, explanations - like damage in transit, changed out later because someone thought it looked cool, etc. Also curious that the hood has been replaced - could the grille have been damaged/stolen at the same time? No disrespect to the production superintendent (I was one too). If you ask - is something &quot;possible&quot;, you get a different answer than if you ask what the more &quot;likely&quot; explanation is.
OK - sorry for the rant - had to defend my fellow employees! </div></div>



Your post leaves the impression that all plants were like your line.

The audit process sheet that I provided is instructive as to the defect count which is an obvious indicator as to build quality.

If you look at the kinds of defects recorded and the quantities it becomes a sample proposition for a reader to understand what the quality standards were for assembly when the line was ran at a break neck pace in a divorce RPO environment where replacement workers were placed on an element with two minutes of On the Job instruction and then expected to keep up.

Minor mistakes were common as were build configuration errors.

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

1. I have no doubt the wrong color grill &quot;could&quot; have been installed. Seems like more than one person would have had to screw up, though. Although the car did not make it out of the plant, there was a Chevette built in the OKC plant in the late 70's with Chevette emblem on one side and Pontiac T100 emblem on the other. &quot;Could&quot; that car have been delivered to a dealer, then bought? Sure, but it wasn't.

2. I also have no doubt that Tom believes this car came with a black grill. But, being that he was the third owner, that is a pretty bold statement to make with certainty. One would have to have a picture of it coming off the transport truck to the dealership to prove it. Maybe owner number one will surface with that picture. It was special ordered. He wouldn't be the first owner to be waiting at the dealership when it arrived. Would like to see the order form. Just special paint couldn't account for a black grill.

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

I will note that the workers were/are sharp. As Bergy notes, these guys lived and knew the configurations, especially with only one body style. Always interesting to watch the line guys do an audit inspection - they see details that noone else every would. The inspectors had looked over one car and then a woman from the line walked up and pointed out one of the emblems was barely attached, among other issues.

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

----To true, Lynn! A long time ago my wife Jan was in route sales. Parent company gave her a new Plymouth Horizon, or a new Dodge Omni? One side had Horizon emblems and the other side had Omni emblems. True,,,Ask Cousin Eddy......Bill S

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

True! Saw it with my own eyes! Built in Belvidere, Illinois!

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

In 1980 I was at Marcy Chevrolet watching A GMC pick up getting unloaded from the carrier. Now this got my attention for two reasons - the color was Tangier orange, and White two toned and I was at a Chevy Dealer.... .


GMC grille, Chevy Silverado dressed on the drivers side with a Chevy tail gate.

All GMC emblems on the passenger side.

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

# 59 ZL1 Camaro, Hugger Orange with style trim had black pin stripes on one side, white on the other from the factory.

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

----We used to call our mixed breed Chrysler product &quot;the Horomni&quot;. It seemed to fit the car!......Bill S

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

What about the Ford Taurus CL that had the “Taurus” and “CL” swapped end to end – CL was in front of Taurus. ...

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: earntaz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about the Ford Taurus CL that had the “Taurus” and “CL” swapped end to end – CL was in front of Taurus. ... </div></div>

Without getting too graphic are you saying it spelled CL-TAURUS? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif[/img]

Now that is a great assembly line practical joke!

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

Haha Steve, now that's funny!

Cool JL8 car, hope he didn't get scared off.

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

I have seen more than a few factory screw-ups over the years and have ordered (for retail sold orders) a number of cars that weren't on the standard color/interior available choices. I've seen Delta 88s with Buick emblems on one side, Oldsmobiles with Buick wheel covers, Oldsmobiles with Buick interiors, etc., so line mistakes do happen. I've also seen brand new cars come right off the transporter with paint work; there is/was a repair facility for minor damages sustained on the line. I've see cars delivered with missing options, listed on the bill of laden, but not on the car. I think we need to determine if there has been any black paint applied to that grill or if it has been replaced, which should be rather easy to discern. And, yes, the &quot;CL-Taurus&quot; is a good one!

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

Bingo -- supposedly it belonged to an older lady school teacher and she drove the car for over six months before her servicing Ford dealership noticed it. She couldn't figure out why so many drivers were smiling when they passed her. Caused a big stink at Ford -- never heard of the outcome. TAZ [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif[/img]

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

----And...as several of you know, Red Alert was delivered to Bob Hamilton with an LS5 redline tach. I got so sick of all the doubters that I took the tach out and touched it up.......Bill S

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

And, I'll add another scenario that I am guilty of, although many, many years ago. At time of delivery if something was askew on said new car delivery all bets were off. We'd do whatever we had to get the car &quot;over the curb&quot;.....literally. Change wheels, radios, trim items, etc. Our &quot;New Car Get Ready Dept.&quot; was like mayhem almost all of the time. We were delivering close to 350 new Oldsmobiles every month and were always robbing Peter to pay Paul. The mgr. of &quot;Get Ready&quot; had the neatest little gadget that I always liked, but never got and have never seen another; remember the little glass jars of lacquer touch up paint? Well, he had a little gun that screwed to the paint jar and had a hose that attached to a mounted tire....and....voila! Instant paint gun! Anyway, my point is some unorthodox stuff happened prior to the customer taking delivery. Fleet deals weren't as important, but they still had to get &quot;down the road&quot; and the parts pilfering affected them too.
I hear ya Loud-n-Clear on the wrong redline tach, Bill. Honestly, I'm not surprised it had the wrong one installed.

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

But back to THIS car....

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

Actually, let's go back to the Taurus for a second. There never was a CL model. L, GL, LX, SHO, etc, but no CL.
Sounds like an urban legend. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

Great -- I just knew FORD could never make a mistake like that ... [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/haha.gif[/img]

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

Well I hope Tom does come back and post in this thread, and I hope he was able to talk to the original owner.

Re: Stripe Delete JL8 Z28
 

Last January at Russo-Steele I spoke with some guy that said he bought a new '69 Z/28 with a Turbo 400. Other old tales include factory LT-1s, headers, cross-rams. I have little faith in what even an original owner remembers about a car they owned 47 years ago.

I would like to see backside photos of the grille, removed from the car.