Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: firstgenaddict</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am the one who stated the wiper transmission over spray absolute... I have also stated I was wrong that the only absolute is there are no absolutes. The wiper transmission was installed after the body was painted so barring touch up or mismatch they should not have over spray.
Previously no one had the information that front ends on special paint cars were installed primed and then de-trimmed and painted. This formerly unknown process was brought to light through this thread, yes the discussion was spurred by your vehicle however before this information was brought to light the only known way to have paint on the wiper transmission was a dealer touch up or repaint. </div></div>I don't fault you I fault the people who after plenty of info refuse to admit they made a mistake on what they saw.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

Phil,

Thanks for all y,our information on this subject.

At our Chevelle show this past weekend, we had a gent there that worked on the Baltimore assembly line for decades. He did numerous jobs to include, assembly, supply and paint. His insight and knowledge were incredible. He brought, tools, pictures and clothing from the line. He talked about problems on the assembly line and how they were solved. Worker turnover was very high. For every 100 GM would hire, only 5 would last within a week or so. It was grueling work and the line rarely stopped. Plenty of mistakes were made during the assembly process.

He remembers the COPO cars and other special oddball orders. He said there were approximately 50 build sheets per car for all the components (two Baltimore cars and I have none), normal procedure was to throw them away when done. If you find one folded up under the dash, that car had an assembly problem that had to be fixed off the line and the defect was noted or circled on the build sheet.

I know this wasn't a Norwood rep, but I'm guessing the production environment was similar. His time on the paint line was short. He said it was miserable. They had to cover their faces with Vaseline and the bottom of their boots with grease to keep their masks from sticking to their faces and boots from sticking to the floor.

Phil Woj.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

Ok Clem.. Enough is enough.. Opinions are not gonna change on either side.. Time to let it go..

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tenney</div><div class="ubbcode-body">[/quote] no matter what people post here it is all opinion or speculation and I have and know the facts on my Z/28. </div></div>

That's the great thing right, Clem? And good of you to share your experience - look forward to hearing about your other cool cars!

Keith Seymore posted some excellent, experienced-based, info on the special paint process earlier, btw. [/quote]how about a new 53 chevy 6 with a 261 truck block,dual csrbs and exhaust,cam and dual point ignition. had lots of fun blowing off the 54 v-8 fords with their new OHV v-8

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Woj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...His time on the paint line was short.He said it was miserable. They had to cover their faces with Vaseline and the bottom of their boots with grease to keep their masks from sticking to their faces and boots from sticking to the floor.</div></div>

I was just thinking about this.
Think about that,you're working for one of the 3 largest vehicle assemblers in the world @ that time.Painting them as well with lead based paint all day had to be one of the most undesirable environments in the world back then.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

I hesitate to add this (no dog in the fight either way) On the -- 69 huggar orange nova we restored for Alan Forman, it had a redish/pink card wedged in between the heater box, and floor board that said it needed to go to the repair area. It was hard to read, but pnt could be made out. The car had lots of overspray on the inside.

We had the same thing with the painters at the plant I worked in before they went to full air suits. Vasaline all over their faces and extremities. Better to be a welder. :-)

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

LOL I painted a couple of 18 wheeler moving van trailers we bought 55 gallon drums of white paint... everything I had was white misted for years.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

I think we need to remember that any so-called experts on any type of car probably never worked at the plants when they were built. Their knowledge is accumulated from viewing lots of original cars and taking diligent notes. Their knowledge tends to reflect typical production. When an anomaly comes along, they need to be open minded and willing to learn that some strange things do happen at the plants that do not conform to what might be expected.
As an &quot;expert&quot;, they must be open to learning new things, rather than feeling they already &quot;know it all&quot;. There's a big difference between 30 years experience and one years experience 30 times.

Verne [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Woj</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Phil,

Thanks for all y,our information on this subject.

At our Chevelle show this past weekend, we had a gent there that worked on the Baltimore assembly line for decades. He did numerous jobs to include, assembly, supply and paint. His insight and knowledge were incredible. He brought, tools, pictures and clothing from the line. He talked about problems on the assembly line and how they were solved. Worker turnover was very high. For every 100 GM would hire, only 5 would last within a week or so. It was grueling work and the line rarely stopped. Plenty of mistakes were made during the assembly process.

He remembers the COPO cars and other special oddball orders. He said there were approximately 50 build sheets per car for all the components (two Baltimore cars and I have none), normal procedure was to throw them away when done. If you find one folded up under the dash, that car had an assembly problem that had to be fixed off the line and the defect was noted or circled on the build sheet.

I know this wasn't a Norwood rep, but I'm guessing the production environment was similar. His time on the paint line was short. He said it was miserable. They had to cover their faces with Vaseline and the bottom of their boots with grease to keep their masks from sticking to their faces and boots from sticking to the floor.



Phil Woj.
</div></div>

Phil,

Norwood was pretty much the same. I am very glad that you reached out to a worker from Baltimore.... Did you know that Walt Gregonis left Norwood and went on to manage Baltimore Assembly?

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Verne_Frantz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think we need to remember that any so-called experts on any type of car probably never worked at the plants when they were built. Their knowledge is accumulated from viewing lots of original cars and taking diligent notes. Their knowledge tends to reflect typical production. When an anomaly comes along, they need to be open minded and willing to learn that some strange things do happen at the plants that do not conform to what might be expected.
As an &quot;expert&quot;, they must be open to learning new things, rather than feeling they already &quot;know it all&quot;. There's a big difference between 30 years experience and one years experience 30 times.

Verne [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] </div></div>

Amen!!!! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

this site is to be about the preservation of camaros and I saved a rare Z/28 from being lost forever because the experts did not know what to look for and all I get is static and the experts are praised.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">how about a 74 chevy pickup with a 482 cu inch BBC with aluminum heads, headers,corvette cam,850 holley and a 400 turbo with 3.70 gears that would scare the hell out of corvettes. used to street race them with dirt bikes or a snowmobile in the bed for traction. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/laugh.gif[/img] had 2 22 gallon fuel tanks because it need them. </div></div>

No doubt; you speaking of scaring Corvettes reminds me of this. Ours was an '85 stepside with an all aluminum 454, TH400, 9.5 ring gear rear axle drilled for 5 hole 5&quot; bolt circle. Best ET was 10.71 (see &quot;Is it True?&quot; below).

K

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b3...001/img093.jpg

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this site is to be about the preservation of camaros and I saved a rare Z/28 from being lost forever because the experts did not know what to look for and all I get is static and the experts are praised. </div></div>


OMG.... [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/no.gif[/img]

I give up..

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

*deleted *

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cook_dw</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">this site is to be about the preservation of camaros and I saved a rare Z/28 from being lost forever because the experts did not know what to look for and all I get is static and the experts are praised. </div></div>


OMG.... [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/no.gif[/img]

I give up.. </div></div>





Lord please take us all now.....LOL

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Verne_Frantz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think we need to remember that any so-called experts on any type of car probably never worked at the plants when they were built. Their knowledge is accumulated from viewing lots of original cars and taking diligent notes. Their knowledge tends to reflect typical production. When an anomaly comes along, they need to be open minded and willing to learn that some strange things do happen at the plants that do not conform to what might be expected.
As an &quot;expert&quot;, they must be open to learning new things, rather than feeling they already &quot;know it all&quot;. There's a big difference between 30 years experience and one years experience 30 times.

Verne [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] </div></div>the trouble is if there is $$$ involved they don't want to learn about the anomalies as it could hurt their bottom line. you got the same thing over on the NCRS people who make the $$$ from the hobby make the rules

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

What's really funny to me about all of this, is all the emotion surrounding original numbers, authenticating factory details, etc. While I can appreciate preserving a piece of history, I think too many people get caught up in it and forget about why the car was made in the first place.

It's a lot more fun to wind up the 302 and powershift 2nd gear than it is to agonize over whether the 45 yr old paint on the cowl was silver or purple. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif[/img]

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: novadude</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What's really funny to me about all of this, is all the emotion surrounding original numbers, authenticating factory details, etc. While I can appreciate preserving a piece of history, I think too many people get caught up in it and forget about why the car was made in the first place.

It's a lot more fun to wind up the 302 and powershift 2nd gear than it is to agonize over whether the 45 yr old paint on the cowl was silver or purple. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif[/img] </div></div> Good point. This topic has drifted to the ridiculas.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

I think if any one of us was put in Clem's place, they would have been insulted.

Basically, people were calling him and the other people who claimed it was EO from the beginning, liars.

No one likes to be called a liar, so cut him some slack because any of us would have felt the same way.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: markinnaples</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think if any one of us was put in Clem's place, they would have been insulted.

Basically, people were calling him and the other people who claimed it was EO from the beginning, liars.

No one likes to be called a liar, so cut him some slack because any of us would have felt the same way. </div></div>thank you as it amazes me people just take someone else word who have no knowledge of the car.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

OK sports fans -- this horse has been beat to death ...

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

Omg!!!
All right already!!
Does anyone have something more interesting about cars to talk about???

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

I know Clem, and he is a great guy that has accomplished many things most of us only dream about. He has owned many amazing cars over his lifetime. When the OE or -B or whatever you like to call it, was found, Clem had no idea. He was contacted well after the fact, and to think he still retained paperwork for the car is equally amazing. In fairness to William and JM, I doubt the last thing they ever expected to see is a purple Camaro, who would. The code - B would seem to indicate the car was a stripe delete car since it was determined by them it was Cortez Silver. Now the car and its story lands on team Camaro where I saw it. I immediately knew it was Clem's car, the infamous purple Z/28. When Clem came on board and told the world it was not silver, it was ordered EO, the thread blew up. He was called out, and the theories flew wildly. Everything form Clem didn't know what color HIS car was, to Grabiaks themselves painted the car OE behind his back in some cases. Even after Clem and Sam Grabiak wrote letters about the car, it was still in many peoples mind, silver, after all thats what the report said. I saw all kinds of derogatory comments made by both sides. I never doubted the car was what it was, why would Clem even fabricate such a story? He has no stake in the car anymore. He told his side of the story, and for that he was raked over the coals. To me its over, and the bottom line the car is purple, what shade of purple and just how well GM painted the car is another story. Clem ordered a OE Z/28 and that is exactly what he received to the best of his knowledge...BKH

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

Who wants to join the Norwood retirees on a tour on the LGR tour?

Where the gen 1,2 and 3 guys meet the Gen 6 guys face to face on the assembly lines?

If there is interest here I can start a seperate event thread.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

^^^ Best, most concise written explanation to date that almost anyone can digest, now if Clem could just calm down, and cut the <span style="text-decoration: underline">readership</span> some slack here, that would be great! We're all car lovers and gearheads here.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: markinnaples</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think if any one of us was put in Clem's place, they would have been insulted.

Basically, people were calling him and the other people who claimed it was EO from the beginning, liars.

No one likes to be called a liar, so cut him some slack because any of us would have felt the same way. </div></div>

Your wrong. If I were in Clems place I would of stated the facts and left them at that. If people don't want to believe me or call me a liar that fine. Everyone is entitled to there own opinion. I would know deep down inside I was telling the truth and that's all that matters. I wouldn't get on here and act like a third grader with all the name calling. To me someone that goes to that far has something to hide. Clem did the same thing over at TC and CRG. He just wouldn't shut up. I love hearing about the cars and the paint process. But I'm sick and tired of hearing from Clem. Maybe it's time he gets another tread shut down.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

Rick99, sorry, I only know what I've seen on this thread, and based on that, I think &quot;you're&quot; wrong, but that's all I will say as I have no dog in this fight. I was only basing my opinion on this thread and don't want to get into any ****ing matches with anyone. Cheers everyone.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rick99</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: markinnaples</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I think if any one of us was put in Clem's place, they would have been insulted.

Basically, people were calling him and the other people who claimed it was EO from the beginning, liars.

No one likes to be called a liar, so cut him some slack because any of us would have felt the same way. </div></div>

Your wrong. If I were in Clems place I would of stated the facts and left them at that. If people don't want to believe me or call me a liar that fine. Everyone is entitled to there own opinion. I would know deep down inside I was telling the truth and that's all that matters. I wouldn't get on here and act like a third grader with all the name calling. To me someone that goes to that far has something to hide. Clem did the same thing over at TC and CRG. He just wouldn't shut up. I love hearing about the cars and the paint process. But I'm sick and tired of hearing from Clem. Maybe it's time he gets another tread shut down. </div></div>I believe there is something you can do on your computer that my posts will not show up show why don't you do that???

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

Clem,

Please just do not take the bait. This thread is going partisan. Based upon what I see on another site (where I happen to be Banned) there are posters there that are also posting here and I see a pattern as we are being cattle herded to a thread lock.

Lets not do that ok?

Phil Borris

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Clem,

Please just do not take the bait. This thread is going partisan. Based upon what I see on another site (where I happen to be Banned) there are posters there that are also posting here and I see a pattern as we are being cattle herded to a thread lock.

Lets not do that ok?

Phil Borris

</div></div>he seemed to be having problems with what showed up on his computer so I was just giving him some help with his computer problems. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/laugh.gif[/img]

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

Maybe if everyone stayed on topic and quit reiterating a subject that 99.8 percent of us don't give a S### about useful information could be passed around and we would all learn something, instead of suceeding in getting two threads locked down in 24 hours. Everyone has said their piece about what they saw, what they ordered, who's friends with who, who's better than who, lets quit the arguing, man up and drop that part of the subject.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

** INTERMISSION TIME **

Click below for the Intermission Movie, brought to you by your friends at Chevrolet.
Enjoy the new for '66 General Motors A-Bodies...including Cutlass and Tempest in Special Paint!
Anybody else miss cage dancers too?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pTYWPndNbgc

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
~ Pete

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

hey pete I see you race vintage snowmobiles. back in the day,1960s i drag raced alky burning Rupps. my last sled was a water cooled Rupp that had the rad in front of the rider. what sled do you race ???

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">back in the day,1960s i drag raced alky burning Rupps.</div></div>

440?

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

Clem.....you have managed to take a thread about paint process and trash it all by yourself. I asked you to chill out but you keep babbling on about this. This is the last time I am going to ask you to drop it.

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

About the video, is it me, or was the '66 Olds a shade of (almost hate to say it) Purple? However, the sky also seemed to cast a Purple-ish hue, as did some of the actors skin! Suffice to say that lighting, angles of light, age, etc., can change how a color is perceived.
Now back to the EO Camaro.....I'm guessing (have no cold hard facts to support my theory) that the primer used on Clem's Special Order Camaro could/would have been something other than Red Oxide or Black. That EO metallic would be much easier to spray (back to spray in a second) over a lighter primer than a darker. Is that a feasible thought? And the first two shots of the door panel being peeled back show two distinctly hidden colors.....one a shade of Purple and the other a shade of Grey. Could the unusual light primer (if in fact it was an out-sourced product that has been stated by an ex-assembly line worker) and some metallic overspray &quot;created&quot; a color mimicking Silver? We now know the the Special Paint cars received a substandard and out-of-the-norm paint job with a product likely obtained from an outside vendor and that color &quot;could&quot; have been mixed BY EYE to a 1&quot; long paint chip. And then the front clip was painted by DIFFERENT painters in a DIFFERENT area under DIFFERENT conditions.
My point here is that with so many variables and the 47 (car built in 1968) year time span, how can there really be a 100% definitive conclusion? I don't think anyone involved here thinks that they themselves are wrong, and frankly, there may be some validity to their strong-willed opinion. Guys and gals, let's stop the mud slinging and childish rants and get back to the real reason we are united here.....we aren't gonna sing Kumbaya (sp.) around the campfire, but it is so counterproductive to cast negative slurs to one another......this is supposed to be fun!!!

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tenney</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clem</div><div class="ubbcode-body">back in the day,1960s i drag raced alky burning Rupps.</div></div>

440? </div></div>440 nitro

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Clem.....you have managed to take a thread about paint process and trash it all by yourself. I asked you to chill out but you keep babbling on about this. This is the last time I am going to ask you to drop it. </div></div> I have not started any new posts about my car. I have only replied to other people posts. if not for my car this thread about the paint process may not have been started

Re: 1969 Camaro Special Order Paint Process
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DW31S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Guys and gals, let's stop the mud slinging and childish rants and get back to the real reason we are united here..... it is so counterproductive to cast negative slurs to one another......this is supposed to be fun!!! </div></div>

Exactly.

Everyone just needs to take a step back here.

We need all the different sources of information, and objective looks at each source.

I greatly appreciate the input from retired workers. Likewise, the recollection of an owner AND the observation of MANY cars over the years is valuable; as is GM documentation. They are all pieces of the puzzle.

Clem can’t understand why notarized statements of events from 46 years ago doesn’t result in a “closed case”. Sadly, it doesn’t. Not because of Clem, Clem’s integrity, or any thing else having to do with someone’s honesty. Memories fade. I can’t tell you how many times I have thought something happened a certain way and was corrected by a brother, a high school friend, or whatever. I AM NOT SAYING CATEGORICALLY THAT CLEM IS WRONG.

I have seen notarized statements from owners and dealers that turned out to be absolutely false. I can’t think of ONE where I believed the person making the statement was intentionally lying. They simply made mistakes. So, we have become skeptical of the notarized statements. Does that mean all of them are useless? Not at all. They are a piece of the puzzle.

Lastly, check the ego at the door. It gets in the way. We all have something to learn. When the obvious point of a post is to prove you are right, or how much you know, you aren’t likely going to be contributing in any meaningful way.

I spend more time on this site than any other car site. Why? Because I learn from some of the best. Because NORMALLY, we can agree to disagree, or at least disagree civilly.