Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

I wonder if an EFI'd 500&quot; Big Block torque monster might sway Ken back over from the dark side... [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif[/img]

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

Been there-done that more than once. Still not as good as a good LS. At 950 hp I bet I still will get at least 18 mpg with the ac on this year on Hot Rod Power Tour.https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...o_curves_2.jpg

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

No arguing those numbers. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Just out of curiosity-- how many cubic inches, how much boost, and what's the cruise rpm on the highway (~70 mph)?

Lastly, what does an engine like that cost to build?

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

427&quot; Not sure of the boost but the engine makes 700 hp with no boost. At 80 mph I'm about 2200 rpm. Thomson Automotive sells the engines for 40K. Same engine with E85 will push over 1000 hp. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...yno_curves.jpg

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

Playing the devil's advocate:

This costs $13,781 for 620hp which is $22.22 per hp.
https://chevroletperformanceparts.co...s/19201333.jpg

This on the other hand is $20k for $638hp which works out to be $31.35 pr hp. I can't begin to guess where the ratio goes at 950hp.
https://chevroletperformanceparts.co...19244099_A.jpg

I realize there is more usable power under the curve on the LS AND it will get more mpg then the 572 but I also believe the cost to install the LS motor has significant adders over what it takes to install the 572 in a popular muscle car. I'm willing to bet that the install delta between these two options if not performing the swap yourself is close to 10K. If you are a diy- it is harder to speculate on a theoretical skill set and the value offset.

So one gets 10mpg and the other gets 18mpg while costing $10-20k more. How long till you make up that delta?

Taking the cost out and factoring only weight, performance, reliability type things- the LS certainly make a lot of sense. I do understand their appeal.

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

As much as I detest quoting magazine articles, there are two that come to mind:

October 2014 (sorry, can't find a web link to the story online other than this, but it leads to a dead link): CC builds a turbocharged 454 pulled from a Suburban, added a mild HR cam and a pair of Brodix heads and winds up making 950+ HP and over 1030 lb.ft. at just over 19 psi. When they added race gas it made 1200+ HP and 1300+ lb.ft @ 29 psi. Note this was going through a single plane intake, an 850 Holley and still using the OEM short block--iron crank, cast pistons, and stock rods. All they did was open up the ring gaps. Disclaimer: IMO they're nuttier than squirrel sh*t making that kind of power on the stock bottom end.

2003: Import Killer Using a 454 HO crate short block, they added AFR heads, a Crane hydraulic roller, and a Vortec supercharger. On pump gas it made 950+ HP and 750+ lb.ft.

Both are admittedly old school approaches, but the power is still there. I wonder how civilized either of these could be with the addition of a modern EFI system.

Don't misunderstand, I'm a big fan of the LS platform, but I'm not ready to throw in the towel on the beloved rat motors just yet.

(Sorry to digress from the topic of the thread!!!! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/frown.gif[/img] )

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

A huge difference is driveability. If my Mom were still alive she could drive my 950 hp car. I have a 509&quot; BBC old school EFI in a 32 Ford making a claimed 750 hp that I would never let my Mom drive. It is neat but not even in the same room with the LS. The 20K LS9 shown above can easily make a dependable and driveable 750 hp with a little tweaking.

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

I am just short of 70 years old and have had more BBC than I can count. IMHO the Loose Squirrel (read LS) engines are for those that need a computer to tune for them. Also, they go to a junk yard, drop it in and bolt on a bunch of gee-gaw crap to hide the fact they have bolted in an LS -- and their happy.

Bottom line -- to each their own ... TAZ

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

I'm 62 and also have had more BBC than I can count. Currently in my barn is a 509&quot;, 494&quot;, 427&quot; 427&quot; and 427&quot;. They are all cool engines but nothing compared to my LS. Sorry if the thought of a computerized engine bugs you that much. Seems more like you don't want to learn any new tricks. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...2-img_1711.jpg
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...3-img_1714.jpg
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...4-img_1715.jpg
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...5-img_1716.jpg
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...6-img_1717.jpg

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

Charley -- &quot;Sorry if the thought of a computerized engine bugs you that much&quot;. That's not it at all -- computerization is the way for the future. I am an aircraft maintainer by trade with access to everything to F-35s on down the line. Without computers, many aircraft would not be able to fly.

My hangup is old iron with an LS type engines. It is about like installing a PW F135 in an old P-51 Mustang ... UGH!

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

I promise I will delete the non Kwhizz stuff when the LS discussion dies down.

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

&quot;My hangup is old iron with an LS type engines. It is about like installing a PW F135 in an old P-51 Mustang ... UGH!&quot;

Kinda like putting a big block Chevy in a 32 Ford. How dare they remove a Flathead V8.
[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/CharleySucks.gif[/img]

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

After determining that the pan will be acceptable......I decided to pull the engine out again so I could finish up changing the steering box from that super slow stock ratio manual box to a Jeep Grand Cherokee power steering box....Three turns lock to lock.......I also can now finish &quot;Clearancing&quot; the trans tunnel to fit the new trans..........and I also removed the gas tank so it can be modified to work with the new fuel system.........also removed were the front Drum Brakes which will be replaced with Discs........Mark is bringing over the balance of parts next week so we can do the final assy...........This was hard the first time I did it , but..........LOL...........Also here are some more pic's from the underside of the car..........Just Amazing......


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...D69E7DDF67.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...B4E56A3B1B.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...DD9D12748B.jpg


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http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...4844759EEA.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...EE9B83F7DE.jpg


Ken

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I promise I will delete the non Kwhizz stuff when the LS discussion dies down. </div></div>

Sorry if I caused any trouble, I was just rattling Ken's cage a little bit. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img]

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

I enjoy everything on this site. The Kwizz builds are the best. I have a 74 Malibu with a factory 454 4speed. ( M21). It barely has 225 HP. Its fun to drive, but it's a slow ride. If I had the time and knowledge I would pull the motor and tranny, set them aside and drop an LS 6.0 with 6 speed tranny in a heartbeat. My 04 and 07 Silverado's both have LT headers with high flow cats,, they would run circles around my Malibu. That being said I want to say I Luv this Site. God Bless everyone, have a safe weekend. Happy Easter. Scot.

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

I'm only 37, but I've owned at least one example of almost every old school engine you can think of. There simply is no comparison between any engine designed when Eisenhower was still living in the White House and the modern powerplants. Our knowledge of metallurgy, airflow dynamics, porting, camshaft design, etc. are lightyears ahead of the state-of-the-art in the 60's. We all have our favorites; I like small block Fords, but there just isn't any way to effectively argue the point. Sure, the aftermarket closes the gap considerably. I could go out tomorrow and build a Ford 302 that makes 13 or 14 hundred horsepower on the motor, but it would be 99% (or more) aftermarket and cost 25 grand.

Think about this alternative: I can go to the junkyard, find a 6.2 LS or a 5.0 Coyote, put it in a lightened Fox body and, if I have an effective suspension and driveline set-up, run low 10's <span style="font-style: italic">without a power adder</span>. Put that in context, guys. If I could take that car back in time to Pomona in 1970, I could finish in the top 5 in Pro Stock with a junkyard engine that runs on 87 octane pump swill and idles like a Cadillac. NMRA Factory Stock guys are running high-10's in pushrod 5.0 Fox bodies using stock heads, intakes, blocks, etc. at 308-310 cubes and that's certainly impressive, but those engines are scienced out like you wouldn't believe. A stock LS in the same chassis would lop 7-8 tenths off their best time without cracking a valve cover.



<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I am just short of 70 years old and have had more BBC than I can count. IMHO the Loose Squirrel (read LS) engines are for those that need a computer to tune for them. Also, they go to a junk yard, drop it in and bolt on a bunch of gee-gaw crap to hide the fact they have bolted in an LS -- and their happy.

Bottom line -- to each their own ... TAZ</div></div>

I respect your opinion, but consider this for a minute. John Mihovitz at Accufab has been campaigning the Ford 4.6 DOHC Modulars in various heads up classes for years. He uses assembly line blocks, cylinder heads, even cam drives, mostly sourced from the junkyard. Last I heard, he had hit <span style="font-style: italic">2600 horsepower</span> on the engine dyno. Since that was almost two years ago, and he's currently running his 4.6 powered Pro Mod in the high-5 second range, I can only assume that he's awfully close to the 3000 horsepower threshold, if he hasn't crossed it already. I want to say again, that's with junkyard hard parts (Hell, he was still using production 96-98 Cobra crankshafts until he crossed the 2,000 horsepower barrier.) So how does he make that much power from 281 cubes? Lots of boost (60+ PSI) and lots of compression (somewhere around 14.5:1 is my understanding). Seems easy, but how do you make that live in an assembly line block?

He does because he's an artist with the tune-up. Forget the computer, tuning an engine is an art form, no matter what tools you use to do it. I can rebuild a Holley, but I can't tune a pair of Dominators like Grumpy. It's the same with electronics. Hand me a laptop and I'll get your XFI'd LS swap up and running, but there's no way in hell I could do what Mihovitz does.

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

I love the LS motors but will never put one in my car. Period.

With that being said, I have a friend who built a below budget 5.3. He used a stock iron block,stock heads, big cam, Edelbrock intake and a old 700 double pumper. He honed the cylinders, installed stock pistons, bought an Auto Zone crank, slapped it together and got 450+ horse power at the crank on a &quot;stingy&quot; dyno as one person said.

I never would have guessed it out of a little 327.

Kurt

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

OK all -- I cry uncle ... to each their own!!

And Tony -- have to agree on those &quot;little&quot; 4.6 motors ... my 07 FX2 Sport has one and when it winds up it sounds like a Suzuki on steroids. TAZ

Happy Easter ALL!!

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A huge difference is driveability. If my Mom were still alive she could drive my 950 hp car. I have a 509&quot; BBC old school EFI in a 32 Ford making a claimed 750 hp that I would never let my Mom drive. It is neat but not even in the same room with the LS. The 20K LS9 shown above can easily make a dependable and driveable 750 hp with a little tweaking. </div></div>

Check your PM's please. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

Mark stopped over yesterday and dropped off more boxes.........Perfect timing.......Put the new front sway bar on today.......It fits.......Sort of........Generic Kits...............Also got the front disc brakes on ......Now on to the new Power Booster and master....(After a Nap).......


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...09E4744DD4.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...A70B1154DF.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...FCCA5AF238.jpg


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http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...59C95EFC3C.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...ED153E2545.jpg

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

What's the all-in cost of swapping in an LS-(x)into an older GM? $12k?

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> &quot;My hangup is old iron with an LS type engines. It is about like installing a PW F135 in an old P-51 Mustang ... UGH!&quot;

Kinda like putting a big block Chevy in a 32 Ford. How dare they remove a Flathead V8.
[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/CharleySucks.gif[/img] </div></div>

Just like when the 265 came out and guys started putting them in Deuces. How long ago was that? 60 years ago?

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

Kwizz, I should send you my Gramma's '75 Firebird to &quot;update&quot; with something more than its original 145 horsepower mill. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif[/img]

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: markinnaples</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What's the all-in cost of swapping in an LS-(x)into an older GM? $12k? </div></div>



If that...........Pretty simple now that everything is figured out........

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

Thanks Kwhizz. I'm awaiting delivery of my first muscle car in years, and I'd consider doing an LS swap a little down the road after I enjoy it as-is for a while.

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: markinnaples</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks Kwhizz. I'm awaiting delivery of my first muscle car in years, and I'd consider doing an LS swap a little down the road after I enjoy it as-is for a while.
</div></div>
What is it ?

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

1968 Z/28 that's an old ISCA show car. Has a non-matching tunnel rammed 302 in it. Unfortunately when they did all the custom work, they smoothed the firewall and removed the cowl tag. Tom Martin (Day2_69Z) on here is very familiar with it as his dad sold them the 302. It's one I remember from when I was a kid and have been looking for it for a few years and then someone on FB posted a message that they found it, so I bought it. Prob paid too much, but that's life I guess.

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: markinnaples</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1968 Z/28 that's an old ISCA show car. Has a non-matching tunnel rammed 302 in it. Unfortunately when they did all the custom work, they smoothed the firewall and removed the cowl tag. Tom Martin (Day2_69Z) on here is very familiar with it as his dad sold them the 302. It's one I remember from when I was a kid and have been looking for it for a few years and then someone on FB posted a message that they found it, so I bought it. Prob paid too much, but that's life I guess. </div></div>




That's the difference between &quot;Wanting&quot; something and &quot;Needing&quot; it..........LOL......(Been there)

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

Definitely wasn't a need, lol.

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

The next step in the conversion is to replace the stock Master Cylinder with a Matched Disc/Drum Power Master cylinder assy...............Had to elongate the holes on the booster adaptor to get them to fit over the factory studs on the firewall......(you would think the aftermarket guys would have that pattern figured out by now).........I also had to remount the Proportioning valve as there were some clearance issues.......I also had to make some new Brake lines and got to use the &quot;Best&quot; Tool in the garage again.......The Eastwood Flaring tool.....After fighting with those Chinese Crap Flaring tools while building the Chevelle and buying a Real tool............What a delight.......No stress......Just flare in 10 seconds.....every flare is perfect..........one more line to run and the Engine/Trans go's in for good (hopefully)......


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...53FA88B6FC.jpg


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http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...9D814AB6B7.jpg

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

Engine going in for the last time.......Fits Pretty good......Next is to get the trans crossmember remounted.....


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...ECEBCBE505.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...732820F6AA.jpg

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

Got a couple of things finalized today......Moved the rear cross member back by bolting it from the bottom of the frame mount using the front crossmember hole in the rear frame mount hole ......so ....It is only held in temporarily with 1 bolt per side........Mark will finish the frame mount mod's at his place as they have a person that Really knows how to weld......LOL.....I also thought I would see how the 2012 Camaro exhaust manifolds fit.........It seems they were made for this install......10 Minutes all installed with plenty of room everywhere........Got Lucky again........Next on the list is the Power Steering Pump.....A/C Compressor ......Radiator and trans cooling hose.......Fuel system....Here's a couple more pic's.....Plenty of room around the factory A/C on the firewall........


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...8EB110E021.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...772A157CD2.jpg


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...143543B051.jpg


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http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...5720AA5F86.jpg

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

Moving right along!

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know this is Yenko.net and a site for supercars but it in my mind it has evolved into encompassing all kinds of cars. Are many others like Earntaz offend by the conversion to LS on this car ? He has every right to want it left alone. Just wondering. </div></div>

My personal taste would have been to leave the car as is, all original. A friend of mine helped out with the exterior on this car, giving it a wax I think. He sent me pictures of it at the time and my first thought was... Man, I would love to certify that car at a VCCA meet in the HPOCF class (Historical Preservation of Chevrolet Features). Heck, it even has the original warranty book with protecto plate! It's only original once. It's hard to find the fullsize 2dr sedans that haven't been modified/customized into big blocks and had other things changed. Seems like 90% of the ones for sale have either been finished into a big block/LS or the project was started but not finished. Very hard to find one that is still 100% stock, even harder all original.

I'd even love to have the car as a driver with the 283 and A/C. (I hoping to have an all original driver for the HPOCF class later in life.) It also would be the perfect car to cruise out to Spearfish this summer for the National Impala convention. But everyone has their own tastes. I'm sure they car will come out great. Just offering my viewpoint for Charley and the others.

Will the original drivetrain and other parts be held onto in case a future owner wants to go back to original?

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

Will the original drivetrain and other parts be held onto in case a future owner wants to go back to original?

HOPEFULLY!!!

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

Got the Power Steering pump and lines installed today........It seems we are missing the bracket that holds the reservoir in place.....Mark is looking for it to get that loose end taken care of........I also started installing the A/C Compressor and brackets.......Oppps........Wrong Compressor.......Mark ordered the correct one today......Got the Radiator installed......Tomorrow I need to measure the driveshaft for shortening and get the trans line made and installed......


http://i13.photobucket.com/albums/a2...EA70382D66.jpg



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Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

At this point, she'll be ready by May 13th.....the first Mundelein Car Cruise [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/headbang.gif[/img]

Dan

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

The original drivetrain is sold and gone..........When we were loading it in the truck the new owner noticed the engine still had the original plug wires........

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

[quote=TAR6569
Will the original drivetrain and other parts be held onto in case a future owner wants to go back to original? [/quote]

Sorry Warren , Engine will be well preserved in one of my trucks. Even the engines paint was well preserved being an Arizona car . Thanks Mark and Ken !! This is definitely an awesome car !!

Jon

Re: Webster's 67 Bel Air Conversion
 

going to a good home then