Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

I've never seen a misstamped axle that I can recall.

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

Here is a BL coded rear I have in the garage:

http://www.69lm1.com/parts/rear/pn.jpg

This is the one here:

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbt...1_restamp2.jpg

To me, looks like the bottom of the "E" in BE looks like the "L" in BL

Rich

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

I'm with you on that Rich.

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never seen a misstamped axle that I can recall. </div></div>

He's one for you Kurt.
I have the POP to back it up.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...t_axle_002.jpg

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

I knew if I said that, pics would appear. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]
The second one looks like alphabet practice.

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: L78steve</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've never seen a misstamped axle that I can recall. </div></div>

He's one for you Kurt.
I have the POP to back it up.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...t_axle_002.jpg
</div></div>

Both images look like the standard method of correcting a miss stamp at the factory.

First obliterate the previous mark and then correct. I have seen engine blocks where the stamping was corrected in this way. Not pretty but that is the way it was.

Thanks for posting.

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I knew if I said that, pics would appear. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]
The second one looks like alphabet practice. </div></div>

This condition is typical of the quality and performance issues encountered when a replacement worker is assigned to an element and does not understand how to properly perform the element.

More common than you would think.

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...0577-image.jpg

Honestly, this looks like a BL stamp to me that someone altered. The only way I would ever say this *might* be legit was if it had a correctly dated COPO posi unit and ring and pinion in it and it was in &quot;as found&quot; condition and not painted or fluffed.

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fast67VelleN2O</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...0577-image.jpg

Honestly, this looks like a BL stamp to me that someone altered. The only way I would ever say this *might* be legit was if it had a correctly dated COPO posi unit and ring and pinion in it and it was in &quot;as found&quot; condition and not painted or fluffed. </div></div>


Exactly....on the dated COPO R&amp;P portion of the comment.

I am not going to offer opinion either way on the subject rear end. What I will say is that the obliteration marks are consistent with a known manufacturing plant correction technique as recalled to me by the spring and axle line workers.

It is troubling that segments in hobby keep calling most everything with a stamp deviation that does not fit a narrow interpretation fake. If we do this most all of the time we are collectively doomed to learn nothing new before the &quot;living past&quot; transitions into history.

The living past in my statement is in reference to still living line workers who installed these assemblies.

Of course the matter is sealed and left to us to figure out what we can - when remaining workers who can tell us what happened eventually pass away.

That is when this portion of the hobby truly passes into the historical context.

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 copo</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> What I will say is that the obliteration marks are consistent with a known manufacturing plant correction technique as recalled to me by the spring and axle line workers. It is troubling that segments in hobby keep calling most everything with a stamp deviation that does not fit a narrow interpretation fake. </div></div>

You make a good point Phil. With as many inspections that I do every year it has almost gone the other way. When the stamps look too perfect I start to worry. I wrote off a CRV 3.31 rearend as being a restamp about 2 years ago and actually bought it and put it into my inventory. I thought it was fake as you could clearly see that the face had been hastily ground off and restamped in the stamp area of the axle tube. Fast forward 2 years and I get another LS6 in the shop. While inspecting it I see the same exact thing while forgetting about the other rearend. I was going to write it off as a restamp as well but something kept nagging me. I finally remembered the other rearend and bingo, almost identical and within 5 days of the car in the shop. I conferred with Chris White who also confirmed that he felt it was real. Never say never! This is also why documenting these types of anomalies are so important.

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

Mistakes like that can be a black ball on a car. And the EXPERTS are the ones to blame.

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

My low mile LS6 also had a ground axle stamp area, not typical thats for sure. I will post pictures of the BE in question after the paint was stripped. The oxidation is very consistent in all the stamps. I think it is just a non-typical stamp, especially since it has a very difficult to find dated BE posi in it.

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

Here's a better pic. It is not an 'anomaly', IMO.

If the collective wants, I will stop giving opinions on stamps. It's low pay anyway....

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: camaromb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My low mile LS6 also had a ground axle stamp area, not typical thats for sure. I will post pictures of the BE in question after the paint was stripped. The oxidation is very consistent in all the stamps. I think it is just a non-typical stamp, especially since it has a very difficult to find dated BE posi in it.</div></div>

So, you're saying the internals are COPO ? The carrier internals &amp; R&amp;P are correct ?

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ds1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mistakes like that can be a black ball on a car. And the EXPERTS are the ones to blame. </div></div>

I disagree with you and it is often times the EXPERTS do the homework and research to prove that an anomaly is in fact a factory defect. Case in point.

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Kurt S</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Here's a better pic. It is not an 'anomaly', IMO.

If the collective wants, I will stop giving opinions on stamps. It's low pay anyway.... </div></div>

Kurt your expertise and opinion is welcomed and appreciated.

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

It is a double edged sword. We look to them for answers to our questions. They are necessary. But because one says with Authority something is a fake when it may not, there is a dog pile against it. And it depends on the expert. One expert here in the east has a bad reputation because of his making mistakes and his ego. He is attacked on this site regularly. Galen Govier has tarnished his reputation passing off bad cars. Personally I think the rear in this topic looked bad or suspicious. I followed this topic to see where it went. You pointed out that it looks like one you have and others have said it looks like established practices to repair mistakes. I want to learn by being informed and not be told if something does not fit into a narrow margin of what is established as being correct. A point made earlier in this topic. These were production built. No two alike. We have a 67 GTO my uncle bought in 69 with the ugliest firewall. Turns out it has an AC firewall on a car that never came with AC. How, Why? It was just built that way. I was a little hard on the &quot;experts&quot; in my first post. My point is that when they give their opinion it is hard to change mindset after making their opinion known.

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

This rearend in question has a E 9 J dated posi with correct side gears, round spring plate, etc. The gear set is not original, Richmond.

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

If not for the &quot;experts&quot; (which I am by no means not one) many people would have been screwed at auctions and private sales. To my knowledge no one has ever gotten a bogus car by me though it will happen some day, I am only human. In the meantime I have saved many people hundreds of thousands of dollars by not making big mistakes.

Unlike some other inspectors, I will NOT certify a car. Reason being, if I were not an honest man I guarantee I could build a totally bogus LS6 convertible and sell it for many hundreds of thousands of dollars and no one would be the wiser. If I can do it, so can someone else so there is no way I am going to certify a car as being real because today that is nearly impossible. I will write a report with my best professional opinion on real or built but that is it. This is one of the reasons I am SO against re-manufactured or &quot;tribute&quot; paperwork as it will SOMEDAY get into the wrong hands. Mark it as a reproduction or make a list of VIN's public if you want to help the hobby.

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

This got my attention:

http://www.camaros.net/forums/archiv.../t-176365.html

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

I agree with you. But when you put yourself out there as an expert, you open yourself up to being questioned. Just have to be careful with wording when a car or part in question does not fit what is the known norm. I am dealing with a rare car now that has a questionable part. The experts report says he &quot;thinks&quot; it is a restamp. The seller contends that it was not when the car was examined. We know it has been retamped but when? And because it is restamped does not mean that it is not the factory original part. This is a small ding against the car. But the cowl tag guarantees it is real as well as the second owner who is friends with a big collector here in PA.

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

Very interesting reading guys,

This is why I love this site and why we always seek input from people we consider to be the most knowledgeable people in the industry to advise us on any and all cars we pursue. To me the very best documentation you have today is a notarized affidavit from the original owner stating what he or she knows and purchased. As stated by many here, these are old cars, and have in most cases been through many people’s hands over the years. They were built by people, NOT machines, the inventories on the line were done by hand, not tracked by computers, and they didn’t have cameras at every production point in the line. We know for a fact that all kinds of wired things happened on the line and we can only rely on the most knowledgeable people to provide input based on their expert opinions of individual anomalies. Thank you all who have taken the time to provide input here on this thread and in other posts.

Let’s keep our great hobby alive and well!

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

RST My personal Z28 I have spoken to the original owner several times. He ordered the car. I can not get him to put anything in writing. I have asked. All I have is our conversations. Wish I could get something. Luckily NCRS offered the shipping reports that backed him telling me he ordered the car from Berger. I have the POP that backs it options, but for some that is not enough. I come here to learn because I am a student of history. There is a lot of great info all over the internet. How someone uses the knowledge can be either good or bad.

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

ds1,

That is a bummer that he will not sign a verification letter for you, some of these old timers are very Leary of anytime official, my dad paid for everything with Money Orders for years because he did not want his money in a bank. We had an issue some time ago from an original owner who did not want to sign anything, he finally told us it was because he was embarrassed because the car had been re-possessed by the bank. He finally agreed and we left that part out of the story. Keep tying with your guy, hopefully he will understand that it is an important part of documenting an important car that he ordered [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img]

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m22mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The other fishy thing is the placement of the eaton posi single &quot;E&quot; under the main stamp, I have never seen one that far from apporximate center

Mike </div></div>

After looking at my pictures again, I found this one with the &quot;E&quot; a bit to the left, so I guess that may not be that big of a deal. And after seeing another , and better photo of the BE in question here I am not ready to throw it under the bus, and it is a good date, along with what Mark B added about the guts.
Some good points have been made here about the the hand done aspect of these stamps, when we find a rare housing like this we all like to see that perfect stamp, except it does not exist.
How many BE's have been not hit square and all the skeptics see a BL ?
Would be interesting to see any BL's with this date, except who takes pictures of a BL [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img]
Keep an open mind, these cars were crap sometimes.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...75-be_0624.jpg

Another 0519
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...776-be0519.jpg

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...80-be_0519.jpg

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

Mike,
Thanks for posting the BE pics, the first 519BE you showed has the same fat ends on the E of the BE as the one in question. Most of the stamps have a more crisp straight line. I don't know myself on this BE but who would fake a BE with a real dated Copo posi unit and sell it cheap, that makes no sense. Here is a picture of the cast date of the BE in this discussion.

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: m22mike</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> except who takes pictures of a BL [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/dunno.gif[/img]
</div></div>

Me... [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smile.gif[/img] Lots of LM1's had them

Rich

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 69LM1</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Here is a BL coded rear I have in the garage:

http://www.69lm1.com/parts/rear/pn.jpg

This is the one here:

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbt...1_restamp2.jpg

To me, looks like the bottom of the &quot;E&quot; in BE looks like the &quot;L&quot; in BL

Rich </div></div>

The BE in question does Not look like any kind of stamp, like the BL stamp does, looks like it was hacked out with a center punch, and a bad job of hacking, just my opinion from owning and messing with these cars since 1967, I am not an expert at all,

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

I'm not pretending to be an expert, but I can tell you that at Tonawanda we didn't usually grind bad stamped numbers off. We would just &quot;X&quot; out the wrong number and re-stamp the correct number. It was never a good idea to turn the production/QC employees loose with a grinder when it wasn't necessary. We WOULD grind off erroneous raised part numbers and stamp the correct part number in their place. I spent a week doing that to exhaust manifolds as a GMI student :-)

Question - if you were selling a real &quot;BE&quot; rear - wouldn't you remove the paint so that people could see the detail of the stamp clearly?

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

I thought a picture with the paint removed was posted and it looked pretty good. Based on that picture I assume someone here bought this rear. Is that assumption correct. As far as not removing the paint, most people are lazy.


Jason

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

Mike, is that second picture of the 0519 from my car? It looks just like the picture I keep in the car.
Andy

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

Andy
I have know idea. I copy stuff like the BE axle shots that are posted on eBay or boards for reference. Did you ever post your,s ?

Mike

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

And then it could simply be a Brian Williams incident...I misremembered

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

Mike, I know that I posted that picture here, but it must have been about 10 or 11 years ago. Hard to believe that I have been hanging out here for that long. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/youguysrock.gif[/img]
I know I have it on a disk somewhere. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif[/img]

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

You and others posted BE parts pics in this below linked thread back in '04 Andy,
Not all, but most attached pics are still working Ok.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/ubbt...topics/76440/1
[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
~ Pete

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

I have a BE stamped rear that I bought several years ago. The man I purchased from had a great collection of cars, parts and some quite rare stuff. Story was that he had purchased about 15 years prior at Englishtown swap meet from someone that pulled it out of a car (possibly a nova) and had no idea about it.

The date stamp on it is 0524 - I asked a few people about it, sent the stamp to a few people and had mixed reviews. I can try to locate the picture again.

My question - is 0524 a known production date?

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

Here's the BE picture you posted a few years ago Todd.
What internal parts were included w/ it?
[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
~ Pete

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...1231-image.jpg

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

The internals are all wrong. 5:19 or something like that in it. All the shackles and ears are on the tubes and looks never modified but I was always suspect of it because I didnt think it was a known date and the internals were not there.

Re: COPO BE rear on craigslist
 

Well, I think we have a match.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...3-21301-be.jpg

I took this in 2004 when I had the rear axle rebuilt. Saved in a backup disk.