Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

Here is the pic of the stamped numbers in the cowl of the body in question and the vin rubbing from it. There is no way to tell if the numbers are really from ZL1 # 48 without close inspection. We don't know if the numbers were done by the Norwood plant or much more recently. Vin tags certainly can be made and vin #s can be stamped correctly in sheet metal. The trim tag that has been added to this body is a reproduction without the correct body number for ZL1 # 48.

Like the 5 '69 ZL1s that were titled on the same day, it is easy to create titles with no real history in Canada.

If the cowl metal is not factory and the numbers are stamped in it my vote is the numbers are all much more recent additions to a certainly later '69 produced non-ZL1 body.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

Vin rubbing....

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

Quik9r,

Yes, this is just any '69 Camaro, it just happens to have the same numbers as ZL1 # 48 stamped in it.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

Do you have a picture of the fake trim tag ?

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: huggerorangez28</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Charley does the vin always appear on the deck pad on a ZL1 motor? is it every by the oil filter like an iron block? </div></div>


My &quot;original born-with&quot; motor from my ZL-1 #34 had the &quot;original born-with&quot; VIN stamped by the oil filter. Although some cars had them on the deck also.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

Here are the pics in raw steel of the real stamping in. The primered stamping is Not from #48

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

I have spoken to the owner of ZL1 # 48 today and would like to share with you his comments.

&quot;The primered car in the picture is not the #48 ZL1.
My car came to Canada in 1982 from a state that required bill of sale for title only.
Canada requires that you have the bill of sale or title, plus a K22 form for entry into Canada.
As seen in the pictures, both were provided to Canadian customs in 1982 with the wrong vin on the paper work 124371N618902
The incorrect digit is one that denotes the model year, and clearly my car is not a 71 Camaro.
If you punch in the wrong VIN the MTO will provide paper work with the correct vin 124379N618902 .That was corrected and verified in 2006.
That is why there is no previous history for the car before 2006. This IS NOT AN AIR CAR.
The rubbing shown is NOT a rubbing from my #48 car. You can note that the stamped VIN numbers are completely different from the primered Camaro photos.
As the current owner/restorer of the #48 car, I have had this car in my possession since 1982.&quot;

Because of the attempts to disprove the authenticity of this car on the SYC the owner is reconsidering offering it for sale at Barrett Jackson at this time.
He is concerned that the value of the car may have been seriously damaged by the postings by Camaromb, as well as other posters who have made unsupported allegations.
He is not prepared to risk a financial loss due to misinformation spread about the car so close to the auction date.
Mark Bulaw, your photos are of the wrong car, your information is incorrect, and your source Bill Rudow has a motive to damage the owner's reputation. People in “glass houses shouldn’t throw stones”.
Suffice to say that there appears to be a concerted effort to bring down the value this car

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

This is a really important car! Why not just invite the experts to look at it, physical evidence, the resto pictures, the documentation, etc? Posting pics (as always) just leads to more questions - (I can think of a few questions myself based on the latest round of postings - those 2 body stampings should be EXACTLY the same). I don't know who is right &amp; who is wrong - I'd love it if another ZL1 was found!

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

When the cars were trucked to the dealership two unique identifying numbers were typed on the transit paperwork. The &quot;serial number&quot; was the partial VIN; the &quot;ident number&quot; was the number on the body tag. Both numbers also appear on the window sticker and shippers' copy. All Fred Gibb Chev ZL1 Camaro paperwork still exists.

The body number shown on the &quot;trim tag&quot; above belongs to LeMans Blue ZL1 Camaro #47 N618713. It is restored and has its original tags; both unique identifying numbers match its paperwork.

ZL1 #48 would have a different number on its original body tag.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

ok lets clarify this info. quikr9 knows the owner of #48 and has proof of owning the car and claims pics from camaromb are not pics of his #48 car. So are we talking about the same car or is there a real #48 and then a #48 made up car. If there are two different cars, people need to know this before it could really be bad for the owner of the real #48.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

Quik9R. I doubt if Bulaw made up the pics-story that he has posted and it appears to be the same vin as your friends. Your friend gave you pics etc to post but no pic of the trim tag that Bulaw says is a fake with the wrong body #. Your friend supplied you info of what is on the tag but not a pic of the tag. William says the tag info you supplied has the wrong body # for that car. Bulaw says the car he has pics of also has the wrong body #. Can you get your friend to give you a real pic of his trim tag ? I asked people early on in this thread to stick to facts because I don't want a innocent car trashed but something is going on here and a pic of that tag should do alot to clearing this up.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

anybody notice that the hole next to the 9 on the cowl vin is in a different spot on the primered car, also the seam sealer by the heater core area on quick9r's photos looks old to me.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

Wait so now there are <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="font-weight: bold">TWO</span></span> #48 ZL-1's? Not looking forward to seeing how this is going to turn out.

-Matt

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

I am.


Jason

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

Ok, lets review the facts again.. or what I know as facts...

The reported ZL1 # 48 was brought to a bodyshop to be painted. The knowledgeable shop owner noticed that the body sheetmetal was dated much later than the build date of ZL1 # 48. The body to be painted did not have the trim tag. The body had cowl and firewall vin stamps that matched the ZL1 # 48 serial number.

The owner of the car supplied pictures of the body to the bodyshop (pictures that I have previously posted).

The car owner supplied copies of the notarized Georgia Bill of Sale showing a purchase of a 1969 Camaro serial # 124371N618902 on 5/29/1982 for $ 100.00

The car owner also supplied the Canada Customs form dated 5/31/1982 showing 1969 Camaro serial # 124371N618902 reported with a customs appraised value of $ 100.00

The car owner supplied the Canadian Vehicle information package dated 12/01/06 showing 1969 Camaro serial # 124379N618902 registered on 11/30/2006 to the car owner and no prior history.

I did not post pictures of these documents but they are available.
Why the car owner supplied these pictures and documents to the bodyshop owner is a mystery.

Charlie asked what was known about ZL1 # 48, this is what we have from information the current owner and car painter supplied. As I stated before, anyone interested in the car needs to have a thorough inspection of the car itself. All the matters is what we have here of the original ZL1 # 48. At this point we can't be sure what is real I guess.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: supercomp 8.90</div><div class="ubbcode-body">anybody notice that the hole next to the 9 on the cowl vin is in a different spot on the primered car, also the seam sealer by the heater core area on quick9r's photos looks old to me. </div></div>


I just took a measurement from the hole to the 9, then take that measurment it equals the distance from the 9 to the 1... Go to the other pic and do the same-- Not even close. Those ARE NOT the same car Cowl pics.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

Did this car have a tach? If so, did it also have console gauges?

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lynn</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Did this car have a tach? If so, did it also have console gauges? </div></div>

Weren't the first 50 Gibb cars pretty bare bones?? (less car #3)... no console cars.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: camaromb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another pic... </div></div>
Here is why I am asking. If that is the car in question, and if #48 had no console guages, and #48 had a tach (yeah, I know, three &quot;ifs&quot;) then there is a problem. Should have a 17/32 hole directly under the fuseblock hole for the tach wire.

Like this:

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

All 50 Gibb ZL1s had standard warning lights, a speedometer and a fuel gauge. No gauges, clock, radio.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

Just read everything on this car and as a new member and neutral person I think camaromb answered his own question. Since 2 cars have the same VIN on the firewall he gave 8 reasons why the picture he posted is fake. quik9r, supercomp 8.90 and greenLS6 show why the other is more than likely real with the original seam sealer. camaromb also states &quot; It has never shown up on US title searches done decades ago by the guys who were seriously searching for these cars.&quot; Well it makes sense that with the 1 mistakenly typed in the title where the 9 should be anyone searching for the VIN with a 9 would never ever find it. Yes thousands if not tens of thousands of titles were typed in wrong upon ownership changes by state employees who didn't care (its just a job)or double check everything they typed and with no computers it just went into a file.
The owner has said in another listing here that the experts are more then welcome to look at everything in person yet no one has gone.
&quot;Bad News sells&quot; Are people jealous that someone else found the car? You should be happy that it has been found rather then bad mouthing it when you haven't even looked at it.
Maybe I am missing something on this site, why all the negativity? Its not worth anything, just my 2 cents worth.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

Did you miss where it was pointed out that the trim tag info he supplied had the wrong body # ? We asked him to post a pic of the trim tag but we never heard back.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

I have a feeling the owner registered another user name.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

I am NOT THE OWNER. Just confirms the negative attitude on this site. I am sorry I joined. I will unregister as a member.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

My cup is half full.....I have seen very few negative posts on this website [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/youguysrock.gif[/img]

Ryan [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

How many trim tags of any ZL1 have been posted on this site?

Quik9r

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

What does that really have to do with anything ? Here is what prompted alot of questions. You posted this pic as the info on the trim tag. That is the wrong body # and it belongs to another ZL1 that has it's trim tag. We asked why and a asked for a real pic of the trim tag since the info you gave is wrong. Nobody has ever attempted to clear it up. Why is that ? If I had the real ZL1 I would sure want this straightened out. Can you answer that ? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...5-dsc05656.jpg

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

To further think on this. The wrong body # would indicate a fake trim tag. A pic of this cars trim tag would go a long long way in proving if the car is real. Or if it is a fake trim tag it would go a long long way in making the car suspect. It can't be that hard to understand why we are asking.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

Because that makes way too much sense.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

Not necessarily this one but the short form version of many situations like this is often because the truth hurts.
Sorry if anyone's ever unjustly offended here but as with this thread and others past, the opportunity is given to present info w/ facts and details to irrefutably support a supercar as genuine or not.
Not always but unanswered questions are often an indicator that all is not well (or as hoped) and those facing negative facts sometimes chose to not continue preferring instead to leave things undone than allowing negatives of any vehicle be known.
Although an informal process, facts debated on threads here arriving at positive verifications go a long way with many serious about real supercars also worth much more hereafter than fancier looking paper verifications.
So, if this car is the real ZL1 #48 and all's a simple mix up, by God man get the Trim Tag and any other info that can be laid out to prove all is just...ASAP!

[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
~ Pete

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

I don't think 2 Camaro bodies with the ZL1 # 48 vin # stamped in them (pics supplied by owner) is a simple mix up, but maybe that is just being negative.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: camaromb</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think 2 Camaro bodies with the ZL1 # 48 vin # stamped in them (pics supplied by owner) is a simple mix up, but maybe that is just being negative. </div></div>

Tee Hee, Good one.

I am a non negative guy, but I really enjoy good sarcasm.

Ryan

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

I can buy the story about an incorrectly typed vin on the title.

I don't get:
1. Trim tag with the bdy number from another known car,
2. Two shells with the same vin stamped on them.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

The mix up was referring to if the real car exists and got caught up in the haze of this thread also another car(s) appearing w/ the same Vin.
[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
~ Pete

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

If the car has the wrong body number then the trim tag is probably a repro and a new one can easily be made. My question is if the VIN is on the dash and firewall/cowl and seem original as pointed out by a couple of people then do the VINs mean nothing? Why is the removable tag so important over the VINs? I restored a 55 Ford Conv and lost the door tag over the several years it took and had a new one made and it didn't matter since the original VIN was on the frame. Thanks in advance to anyone who can explain this to me about Chevys

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

For 67 &amp; some 69 Camaros build configuration is included in the stampings on the body tag. Performance options are part of that info. Since most don’t have factory paperwork after 40+ years the tag is all-important in verifying that a car is in fact a real SS or Z/28. As you can imagine the tags are often messed with. Years ago it was common to swap them from one car to another [nearly always detectable] and for the last 25 years reproduction tags have been available. Those also are usually easily detected. This is a big problem in the Camaro world and it has resulted in general paranoia over ALL body tags, even those that have no build configuration info including all ‘68s, ‘69s built at LA and early Norwood ‘69s.

However none of this applies to the Gibb Chev ZL1s. They were ordered and confirmed in one batch so the body numbers on the tags are in sequence: 222001-222049 with one anomaly. Each body number is tied to the VIN of the car and all those are known. All the paperwork for the Gibb ZL1s exists so the correct body number for #48 is known-and it is incorrect on the tag that was seen on the car.

If #48 really was found the OE tag was gone suggesting the car was raced [and heavily modified] and little of the original car may remain. It will have to be examined by someone who knows what to look for.

ZL1s are very valuable and regularly sell for $500,000+. What is going on here is the hobby policing itself.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

I guess my question is why does that Georgia bill of sale not have the previous or buying owners names on it? Also there are different hand writings on that document. The amount sold for (One Hundred dollars in script), the model name and VIN (coupe 2dr Camaro, 124371Nxxxxxx). Also why is the model year and manufacturer names typed in and not the model info and vin? Why did the bill of sale need to be notarized and signed by a witness?? Sadly the notary info is not on that doc (seal and expiration of notaries license). A simple hand written note stating that the car was sold for $100.00 would've looked much more legit.

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

ZL1 #48 will be sold November 2nd,no reserve,at the Toronto Fall Classic Car Auction.For more info www.ccpauctions.com

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

Which ZL1 ?

Re: ZL1 # 48 coming to Barrett-Jackson
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which ZL1 ? </div></div>

Maybe it is ZL1 48.5....

I hope to attend the auction to catch the action.

Ryan