|
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
I have quizzed Jim about this very matter, and he said there would be no firestorm within GM. GM/PHS has never had to appear as a witness in court, as the documents they provide are legal documents, permissable as evidence.
|
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
I'll just say it was your attitude that got to me. <span style="font-weight: bold">"I've got my sources"</span>
|
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Why do people always think there is some type of Area 51 alien conspiracy about not having Chevy records? It was GM's largest division and there would have been literally tons of records that they had no need for, and certainly no extra money to pay for archiving. (sadly).
The smaller divisions like Pontiac were able to save their records due to their small size in relation to Chevrolet. And that is exactly why they were saved, thankfully. So guys, please dont bring up the old "Chevrolet is trying to prevent lawsuits against them for clones that will be revealed" argument. It has absolutely no basis in reality. (I tell you that as a lawyer and a car guy). In fact, as these records are considered under the "business records exception" under the rules of evidence, GM would have loved to have gotten paid $100 a pop for the certified copies of each record they could provide for any case. Even better still, getting paid an expert witness fee to provide an actual person to testify to the document would be an even bigger windfall. Maybe we can start a new reality TV series: Clone Hunters, like the cheesy Ghost Hunter and Bigfoot Hunter TV shows. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img] |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Verne_Frantz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I'll just say it was your attitude that got to me. <span style="font-weight: bold">"I've got my sources"</span> </div></div>
There's no attitude there. I just happen to know someone in-the-know, but I don't think I'm at liberty to say who this or the other person is. It was my understanding that it was common knowledge that they existed but red tape was holding it back. |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
I can tell you for a <span style="text-decoration: underline">fact</span> that the NICB has a field for horsepower as well as delivering dealer on their form/fiche. Not every form has the HP field filled and not every form has the dealer but many do.
When I was working with CarFax a few years ago to broker a deal with them and the database contractor they use to access the data and CarFax wanted some idea on market desire, I posted on a few sites about who would be interested and how much would they pay for a report. I posted a copy of a report on one of my cars. This was the REAL report from the DB contractor that accessed the fiche and created the database, on their forms, not some verbal from an officer or screen print. The NICB got several calls threatening lawsuits and thereafter broke off negotiations with us. The ONE physical report that I was able to get had that info on it and I got a cease and desist call from the officer via the NICB to remove the report image at once. Why are so many people afriad of any info being made public? Why is the NICB, who could make a mint off of these reports so afraid to release the information? RichPern |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Probably because the National Insurance Crime Bureau also collects claims data, which in many cases involves intertwined medical insurance claims that are linked with a particular vehicle's VIN. The moment you mention medical claims, then the Federal HIPAA laws on medical record privacy comes into play. Read that as BIG penalties for revealing personal information. That is probably why they went running scared, even though it is so far away from even being remotely related, it could still be a billion to one possibility. And sadly, that is too close to reality for them.
|
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
I own this car in question and I believe it is real. Very well respected experts who have actually seen the car seem to agree. You can't deny that. 992 points at The 2011 Muscle Car and Corvette Nationals says something. Donny in all due respect have you seen the car in person? If you have you have never mentioned that fact in any of your posts on any forum. And what qualifications do you have that tower over Alan Colvin and the judges of MCCN including Bill Braun who is the chief judge of MCCN? No disrespect but what are your qualifications? Why are you not a judge on the authenticity of these special cars? Or are you? I want the facts and the truth. I am not crying fraud or am I a expert by any means. Of course since I own the car I want it to be real. And since you don't you want it to be a fake.
The date code on the block confirm it was built very late in 66'. Would that be a 68' motor? The answer is no. It is a 67' motor. It also is stamped "ID" which confirms it is one of the 11 of 17 built in 1967. The other 6 were stamped "IK". The GM bulletin was issued in March of 1967 stating the motor will be available in the beginning of April of 67'. 1967 Impalas were still being built in July of 67'. The car was built in the 5th week of May of 67'. Therefore it is very possible that a L-72 was installed in a 67' Impala. All the dates make sense. Also there is a picture of the L-72 in the full size 1967 assembly manual that actually shows the L-72 diagram. There is no "cancelled" to be found on any of the pages that reference this motor for the 67' model year. Also about the "4D" on the data plate. It has been verified by a build sheet on a true 1967 Impala SS/427 that the data plate did not have the stamp '4D" but was a real SS/427. Maybe some plants or maybe only one used that code. You have no proof they all had that stamp and it was proven you were wrong by a build sheet. Explain that one Donny. This particular car was built in Los Angeles. These are all undeniable FACTS! I talked to the owner of the car and I was told the reason this car surfaced decades after is that he had no knowledge himself that the car existed even though it was sitting in his backyard. Yes he owned the car and he knew it was a 427/425 L-72 but when he discovered that the 11 of the 17 motors built for the 67' model year had a stamp of "ID" he decided to take a stroll to the car to check. Shazam!! That is where it begins. He thought the previous owner might have installed a different motor from the original. He now knew he was wrong all these years. And what about that second car that someone by the name of Danny Z. claims he owned and purchased through the Chevrolet. Here is his post: "I had one when I worked at Chevrolet Engineering - tagged it for employee purchase the day it arrived in the Company Car Fleet garage; L-72 4-speed SS427, special-ordered by Engineering for Chassis Development. It hit the 3,000-mile mark in December, and I bought it and drove it home just before Christmas; sold it in Flint a couple of years later. Removed the "Special Order" tag from the left side front fender reinforcement and put it in my rollaway just before I sold it, still have the tag - photo below. There may not have been any L-72 SS427's built on dealer order for retail sale, but there was at least one built for Engineering; I bought several sets of rear tires for it in the two years I owned it." Bottom line is I respect everyone including Donny. I am again by no means a expert but I do have common sense. The fact is that the build sheet, protecto-plate, and or the original dealer invoice will may never be found on this car. If was available it would have most likely already surfaced. But does that mean this car is not the real deal? The answer is there is no right or wrong answer to that question. The facts prove that this can very well be a real deal. There is too many FACTS pointing in that direction. I am a firm on my belief it is real because I go by facts. For those who scream fraud just think that even you know Chevrolet kept poor records back in those days. You know that the build sheet can have very well be thrown away at the end of the assembly line. How many of today's classics actually have the build sheet that comes with the car? And how many dealer invoices come with all the classic cars on the planet today? Maybe 10% ? Come on you have to admit it is possible and with all the facts that pertain to this specific car it is highly likely this IS THE REAL DEAL". |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Also may I ad those dealer pocket price books for 1967 were distributed in 1966 for the 1967 model year were they not? Show me a dealer price pocket book that dates after the March 1967 service bulletin that clearly states the L-72 will not be available for all cars built after 4/3/1967. Any pocket books dated prior to the service bulletin can not be used as evidence. Would this explain why the L-72 is not in the pocket price book? Of course it does.........
|
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Ivan, congrats on your purchase, A lot of the questions you have may be best answered by Warren Leunig who runs the SS427 registry and can be found on the SS427 message board website, Donny Bock is also there.
|
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
All I can tell you all is this. After taking my 69 Camaro to the Norwood Reunion last July that was hosted by author and Norwood expert Phil Borris, and listening to the workers and their stories about that facility, don't ever say "that was never done at the factory". These ladies and gentlemen told stories about the cars that came out of Fisher Body and Chevrolet that would blow away all the so-called experts claims of authenticity.
As an example, workers would run out of parts and improvise. Camaros and Firebirds came out of Fisher Body with a floor pan for a column shift Camaro and the chassis was assembled with a 4-sp. What did they do? They called for a guy named Chisel Man. He had 25 seconds to make a hole where there was none. Another was how employees who had ordered cars would have options installed that WERE NOT on the order paperwork by friends "on the line". True stories. So, while some of you "experts" will contradict the authenticity, remember, sh*t happened on the line that unless you were there, don't ever say never! ANYTHING was possible. ps. I won't even get into the Canadian Built SS 427 that I sold a couple of years ago! http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r...Frontsized.jpg |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Is that Sierra Fawn? Love that color.
Dave 67 Nova Boy |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Looks like Granada Gold???
I'd like to here about your 67 Z24 you sold Jeff. |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Not a Z24. Even rarer. L36, T400 w/ 2:73 gears. The only item missing from the born with everything in the car was the engine block heater. Probably the most original, unrestored, near perfect 67 there is.
It's now back in Canada where she was born at the Oshawa Plant in a collection. http://i141.photobucket.com/albums/r...ntageGOLDa.jpg |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
So somebody added the hood then if it was not a Z24. Right?
|
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Here are some pictures I took of the car in question at Mecum Indy in 2013. I'm no full size expert, but I thought 2Z was the code for the M40 TH400 and 2L would be the code for an M21 or M22 4 speed. I don't know what the 4R is. I believe 5Y was deluxe seat belts. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...9-img_6522.jpg
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...0-img_6523.jpg https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...1-img_6524.jpg https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...2-img_6525.jpg https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...3-img_6526.jpg https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...4-img_6527.jpg |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Your absolutely right. 2Z is for an automatic. 4R is for a rear window defog I believe. It's a shame it's a fake car. I always wanted to believe they made a 425hp car. Awesome color too. My car has the infamous 4D on the tag which is bulletproof for the Z24 option.
|
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Ivan,
Did you buy the car in Newport beach a couple of weeks ago? Are you located in southern California? |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Tachometer has been altered too. They would never have the yellow line that long. That was originally a 5500 redline tach.
|
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: GTO_DON</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So somebody added the hood then if it was not a Z24. Right? </div></div>
Yup....in July of 1967. It was a perfect hood. (Still is) Dan still have the car? |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
4R is fender skirts.
Car still has the 2nd set of crossmember mounts for the TH400 trans! Car still fooled the MCACN judges that year it was shown. lol |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Ivan.... I need to clear the air here as I was brought into this discussion from factual comments made at another site. I have no axe to grind with you and did not attack you or your car. I merely mentioned a few items that were sticking points because some folks were trying to help create an urban legend of this car at 2 other sites. First, congratulations on buying a beautiful car. I would love to own it myself. As I said elsewhere, the car is a beauty, and is a very nice restoration. The car has been discussed at great length at two other sites over the last couple of years. I was asked by one of the large auction companies to verify the authenticity of this car in particular, not whether or not an L72 could have existed. I told them what we knew as fact, not opinion about this car, and they declined the option to add it to one of their premier events.
The other car that you mentioned from another thread was previously part of the GM captured test fleet as I recall. I never saw the car, nor did anyone else for that matter. Only the dataplate exists today. If that car existed, it would not have been a production line vehicle. Could the skunk works have put something like this car together, sure. That does not make it a production car in any way. You are correct that some plants did not use the 4D to identify the Z24 package. I know Alan. I do not know Bill, never met him. I think that I am probably a pretty well respected nobody when it comes to the big cars, but I'll let others comment on that. I do know quite a bit about the big cars from 1960-1970, and the 3 years of the Z24 cars (67-68-69) in particular. I am a highly regarded technical source on the big cars with a few National Organizations or Clubs. I am a VCCA Senior judge and have been Chief Judge at several National events over these many years. I have also Judged as a Team Captain at many AACA, NIA, and Late Great National meets, so my judging credentials are pretty solid I think. Now, back to your car. I have not seen the car in person, no. I have, however, viewed many detailed pics of the car before and during restoration though. I will not get into the many suppositions and "might-have-beens" about whether or not an L72 could have existed as you mention. I will keep things factual about this car. As Warren stated, that car fooled several judges. If <span style="font-style: italic">"the well respected experts who have actually seen the car seem to agree"</span> proclaimed it is "the real deal and correct" knew some basic things about the big cars, they would have known, just as several of us do, that the car was a total fabrication. While I respect their knowledge on the Camaros, Chevelles, Corvettes, and Novas, they missed some very blatant things that would have told them that the car was not as it was made to appear. Several items have already been pointed out here in this thread. The tach, the T400 code on the cowl tag (ALL L-72's were 4 speed cars until 1969 in the big cars), etc. When A.O. Smith or Budd company made the frames for these cars, they would install the production cross-member brackets on the frames. Those brackets would handle 3 speed, powerglide, or 4 speed applications. The ONLY time a car had the second set of cross-member brackets installed on it was on a T400 car, and they were added by the line employees as the car came down the line. That was the reason for the option code being on the cowl tag. Your car has both the code and those brackets, therefore, it cannot have been a real L-72 car, or even a 4 speed car for that matter. The face of the tach has been modified changing the red line. That tach was originally not even a 427 tach as it had the lower yellow and red lines. There are documented cases of a few 427 cars with 396 and lower tachs in them, so that in itself is not a big deal. That fact that someone changed the length and the colors of those lines is however. I will be happy to speak with you privately on some other issues, but that is all I will discuss here. Donny |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
The guy who had the 67 L72 experimental car was John Hinckley, aka JohnZ. It's nice to at least correctly attribute it to the right person.
|
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Agreed Kurt! Thanks for putting that out there.
Donny |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Donny...........Thanks for your input!!............Those dam facts always get in the way.....LOL
|
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
I almost bought that car at the auction because my Daughter was with me and she thought it looked like the car in the TV show "Supernatural". She thought it would be fun to drive to high school.
|
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
This car is now for sale in Hemmings for $275K so it must be real! It has one of the longest writeups I've ever seen and is quite an entertaining read. For all the facts pointing out why it's real, the TH400 code on the Trim Tag, the repainted tach yellow & red lines and the TH400 transmission crossmember brackets are never mentioned.
|
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
I guess Ivan didn't buy my details and facts. Some folks will continue to drink the Kool-Aid even when they know how bad it is for you. Like I said, not only is is not an L72, it's not a 4 speed car either. One thing I did not even address is that while I did acknowledge that he was correct regarding the fact that a couple of plants did not use the "4D" on the tag, unfortunately, the plant where his car was built, did use it, so the fact that there is no 4D on his cowl tag eliminates this car even being a real Z24 car on top of it all.
Donny |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
|
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
I know the NCRS Historical Document Services doesn't address Impala's, but wouldn't records exist as to how this car was ordered potentially?
|
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 69hurstSC</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I know the NCRS Historical Document Services doesn't address Impala's, but wouldn't records exist as to how this car was ordered potentially? </div></div>
No, not unless you had the docs from when the car was new. Even if he did have docs, they would show that the car is a fraud, so the paper would conveniently disappear I'm sure. |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mrays</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It has one of the longest writeups I've ever seen and is quite an entertaining read. For all the facts pointing out why it's real, the TH400 code on the Trim Tag, the repainted tach yellow & red lines and the TH400 transmission crossmember brackets are never mentioned. </div></div>
What comes to mind for me is the old adage "if you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull$hit". |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Pure BS fraud cars are not the same as cars w/ facts being debated by the genuine enthusiasts and it's just plain wrong how innocent names get dragged into these stories and schemes. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/bs.gif[/img] ~ Pete |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
The car would have been better off being driven to my Daughter's high school every once in awhile.
|
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
That has GOT to be one of the worst written "for-sale ad" I've ever read. I think I've said this before but when you make people's head hurt wile reading your description, it really does take away from it's credibility. I think it may have been written by the owner of the '69 L-72 SS 4-spd I was chasing!
|
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Is this the car that was in the collection in Vegas?? But i think I remember that was an L-89 car?? probably wasnt a 67 I guess?? Was it called the Imperial collection I think? I believe it was in the basement of one of the casinos... not the same car I guess...?????
|
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is this the car that was in the collection in Vegas?? But i think I remember that was an L-89 car?? probably wasnt a 67 I guess?? Was it called the Imperial collection I think? I believe it was in the basement of one of the casinos... not the same car I guess...????? </div></div>
I think that was the Ash Gold 68.....It was from the Cleveland area years ago. BIG |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Geez... that ad!
A whole lot of his "undisputed facts" sure do get "disputed" by the REAL experts that know the car is a fraud! LOL |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 68l30</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Is this the car that was in the collection in Vegas?? But i think I remember that was an L-89 car?? probably wasnt a 67 I guess?? Was it called the Imperial collection I think? I believe it was in the basement of one of the casinos... not the same car I guess...????? </div></div>
I think that was the Ash Gold 68.....It was from the Cleveland area years ago. BIG </div></div> Yep, That was Bill Mc Call's car. It was a beautiful car, but not real. Supposedly Dealer installed heads. He also did a real 1968 Gotto Blue L72 4speed Biscayne that sold in Kissimmee about 6 years ago for almost 200K. Check out the current discussion over at Impalass427.com on the 67 car. Pretty interesting. Donny |
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
Funny how these 1 of 1 cars gain Credibility by some "Drum Beating" by those with vested interests.......And the story go's on for another to pop up at some time in the future........
|
Re: 1967 Impala SS427 L-72?
You will be able to see it on TV crossing the block at Mecum Indy in May.
Among the tidbits from the description: "Per Chevrolet By The Numbers, there were 11 ID-suffix Special High Performance L72 427/425 HP engines built for the 1967 Passenger Car. The only example known to exist. Gold award at MCACN 2011, score of 992/1000 MCACN judges, including chief judge Bill Braun, state that this engine casting is late 1966, correct for this car" https://www.mecum.com/lots/SC0517-28...vrolet-ss-427/ Seems like he is using the MCACN judging to push the idea that car is real.... |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 09:18 PM. |
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.