Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

You can view the rest of the pics from the above link. I'll add more pictures through the day. If there is anything anyone would like to see to help identify the car, please let me know.
Thanks,
April

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

April - please use your macro setting on your camera so that you can focus in close (your fuel line is in focus but not the stamping). This is the setting that looks like a flower or tulip. good luck.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

I played with adjustments a bit to try and enhance the first alpha character....



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...s/BEaxle-1.jpg

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Hi Sam,
Wish I had a macro setting. :-) I just have a pretty simple camera. I was hoping I would get a better image but if you stare at it for a bit and let your eyes focus you can see it. At least I can, lol, but maybe that is because I know what it looks life in person. Thanks for fiddling with the image. Maybe that will make it easier for someone else.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Take a picture from way further back and then crop it. The stamping may be clearer then. Is the speedo 120 or 140 MPH? Any conclusion on the sway bar?


Jason

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

April - if no macro setting, back your camera up (i.e. move away from the axle) in order to get a clear focus and shoot at a higher resolution. I can then help you crop your stamping photo so that we can get a close view of it (just send it to me digitally griffithjs.ap@mac.com or I can even alter it to some extent on photobucket). Experiment with and without flash from different angles watching for washout/glare caused by flash. Without flash, illuminate the axle stamping with a flash lite or other lite source and shine it so that it is at a different angle than the camera. This sometimes helps to highlight the stampings making it easier to read. Good luck.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Okay, I'll try that with the BE stamp. I have added a few more pics and have a couple more to add but I'm stopping for lunch - at 3 :-)
Sway bar is 11/16 so I'm not sure what that means.
There's not two sway bars, right? What's the other bar that is behind the springs? Because it's bigger.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Wow, that's really a downer if that weld is actually covering the "B" in "BE". If only they would have welded those ladder bars about one inch more outwards! I think that there was also a "PE" rear axle code also that could also be a candidate for your 12-bolt. I'd have that rear axle cover removed in seconds to see if you have the good COPO "BE" spider gears and clutch plates. There's a good chance that factory stuff is still in there because there many 10-second COPO 427 Camaros that were still running factory 12-bolt Posi carriers instead of spools. That's how durable the factory COPO "BE" components were!

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

By the way, the other bar behind the springs is probably the center link you're speaking of.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Mark,
I saw the PE too, but it came with a 10 bolt not a 12 bolt from what I'm reading. I also saw the PE meant a 3.08 gear ratio which would have been too small. I appreciate the advice about removing the rear axle cover but I would be leary of taking anything apart. We may have to if that turns out to be the only way to rule out a PE.
You lost me on the center link. I'm not sure what you mean or what I said that would refer to that. :-) Unless, you're referring to my question about the sway bar, but that's in the front. ?

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Hi April,

Removing the cover is no big deal and is really the only way at this point to figure out what you have, especially since you can't be fully sure about the axle stamping. If the gear numbers are correct, the chances are excellent that you have at the very least, a COPO rear-end.

The best of luck to you!
Dave

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

I am pretty positive it IS a BE based all the other evidence. In addition, it currently has a 454 with this rear end and has been raced this way. From my understanding, 3.08 would not work with a 454. I wouldn't object to someone qualified taking off the cover to confirm it but I really don't feel it would be wise for me or my husband to take it off. Even with the cover off, I'm not sure we'd know what we were looking at. :-) We are also going on the assumption that it came with a 427 which would not have come with a PE.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Hi Dave,
Thanks!! I was posting at same time you were apparently. I know we may too but I'm not quite prepared to do that yet. Especially considering the other factors.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

http://s1151.photobucket.com/albums/...t=BEaxle-1.jpg

I added a picture of the radiator neck and of where the heater box would have been. It is no longer there but it looks to me like there used to be something there.

Jan - Are the pictures of the transmission crossmember helpful at all?

Does anyone have anymore information on the PE axles? I'm trying to rule out a PE.

Someone asked about the speedometer, the original one is missing. I did put a picture of a sticker that was on the gauge cluster. Don't know if that would help with anything. The speedo and tach were literally cut out of the gauge cluster. It does have a clock in the center but I'm assuming they all did except for the rare fuel gauge.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Welcome aboard April!
Others can confirm but I think PE's were 10-bolts so if untouched it won't be that.
On the Keystone Warrior thing, there was a drag strip near Winnipeg Canada operating as Keystone Dragways later called Bison Dragway.
Long shot but it may be worth searching their photo archives etc also running the Vin by George at GM Canada Vintage services, see links below.

Keystone/Bison website...
http://www.mts.net/~red67/index.html

GM Canada Vintage services...
http://www.vintagevehicleservices.com/options.html


Best o' luck w/ everything!.
[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
~ Pete

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

April what are going to do with this car?

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

April.

I believe you can do something helpful to yourself here by simply removing the diff. cover and photographing or describing the contents and their stampings. If COPO gears are in there, the site experts will be able to tell you. Not hard to do, just remove the diff cover bolts and pop it off.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Okay, we are going to try to take the cover off tomorrow. Will I be able to see numbers with the cover off or will I have to take something out? I can tell you now, I will not be comfortable taking anything out of that rear end. I DO NOT want to mess anything up. ;-)
I'll also try and get a hold of the guy in Canada tomorrow. If anyone knows any other resources for finding out information on the car I could use it, I will call anyone who can help me. It's already a special car to me but I think there's more here. According to what you all are telling me, if it turns out to be a copo it will be a VERY special car.


Pictures of the car-
http://s1151.photobucket.com/albums/o628/baleon/

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

If you ordered a tach, and no console, or with console, but not gauge package, you got center fuel gauge. Auto without console, would have been column mount.

As for the curved neck radiator, the pic shows the neck to be clocked incorrectly. Factory curved neck was angled up at about 10-12 degrees. Not saying that one is not original, as it is possible that for some reason, the neck was resoldered. Clearly, that row of braze is not factory. Look for stamped metal radiator tags on either side and report your findings.

I have a repop radiator in my Yenko clone, and I had the radiator rotated and re-soldered at a radiator shop. Cost me $10.

That tranny crossmember is of the style of the TH400 crossmember, but I don't know enough about them to comment on its originality. However, that crossmember was only used with the TH400, and if you ordered a b/b auto, (396 or 427) you got the TH400.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

April
When you get the cover off, try and get a good photo of these #' on the ring gear. Try and find someone with a Macro setting on there camera. You may have to rotate a rear wheel to bring it into view. Both wheels need to be off the ground, use two jack stands, one under each axle tube.

[img:center]http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1.../BE3916226.jpg[/img]

Also try and get shots of the Side gear, and the hole I have circled.

[img:center]http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b1...thsidegear.jpg[/img]

And you are correct, do not try and remove anything but the rear cover.
Have fun.

Mike [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

What about pictures of what the car actually looks like! I am interested to see this cool old drag car!

-Matt

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

LOL, Matt!! When we get done fooling around underneath it we will get it off the jack stands and out of the garage. I'll be able to get some outside pics then. :-)
I will try to get a pic from a different angle on the radiator. It does turn up just slightly but it doesn't look like it in the picture. Bobby and I were both wondering what the heck was added onto the side. Not sure what purpose it serves. There doesn't appear to be any welding anywhere else. I'll see if I can find any numbers and let you know.
The sticker on the gauge cluster has a cluster number and then it list a number beside speedo and nothing beside tach so I'm really not sure what it means if anything or if it would be helpful at all.
Thanks guys!! I really appreciate all of the help.

http://s1151.photobucket.com/albums/o628/baleon/

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: April L</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Jan - Are the pictures of the transmission crossmember helpful at all?
</div></div>

Thanks, yes very helpful.

Since X11 cars were normally equipped with smallblock engines a TH400 crossmember is a pretty strong evidence of this being a COPO since that transmission is for bigblocks only.


But for you to be on the safe side I would suggest you to get it inspected.


Good Luck with it [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/Can-I-Have-It.gif[/img] [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]


Jan

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Well, BUMMER! That didn't help us. Not sure how bad it hurts (it is still a 12 bolt and it does still have the E in the stamping on the axle tube) but I didn't find what I had hoped for. You guys were, of course, right on the money that it wouldn't be hard to remove. ;-) Just took a little time. I posted the pics. The cover is still off so I can get other pics if there is something else you'd like to see.


http://s1151.photobucket.com/albums/o628/baleon/

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

looks like it has 456 gears what are all the numbers on the ring gear can not see in pics

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Okay Barry, which one is the ring gear?

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

looks like a ring gear spacer......

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Actually thats a 3 series OPEN carrier with a mini spool and a ring gear spacer.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Alright guys, you lost me. What does all that mean? Also, how could it be a PE with 12 bolts? I'm soooooo confused. Speak slowly with lots of pictures. :-)

http://s1151.photobucket.com/albums/o628/baleon/

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: April L</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Alright guys, you lost me. What does all that mean? Also, how could it be a PE with 12 bolts? I'm soooooo confused. Speak slowly with lots of pictures. :-)

http://s1151.photobucket.com/albums/o628/baleon/ </div></div>

A PE rear end is a 10 bolt rear only. So don't even bring that up. It CANNOT be a PE with the fact that its a 12 bolt rear end. It is very likely that you have a BE 12 bolt rear end housing, however, everything inside the housing has been replaced. There is a 12 bolt 3 series open (non posi) carrier installed with a ring gear spacer and a set of 4 series 4.56 gears. None of those parts are original to a 12 bolt BE rear end.

-Matt

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Okay, thank you Matt. I suppose that is not unusual considering it was a race car to have had all that stuff replaced. If you have ruled out with certainty for me that the PE is NOT a possibility then the only other option is the BE. BE only came on copo cars if I have learned correctly. And with all the other items, evidence points to a copo car. ??? My next step? Owner history? Some type of documentation? Certification?

Ugh, roller coaster. :-)

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fast67VelleN2O</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually thats a 3 series OPEN carrier with a mini spool and a ring gear spacer. </div></div>

Ditto to this information. Well identified and said!

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Back-tracking all the previous owners is a good way to find out what you have. That is where I would go for now. Find out where the car was raced, search the tracks it was raced at for pics, try to find some of the older racers in the area where it was raced. Hit the local cruises with some pics of the car and ask around. Someone will recognize it. If there are any speed shops around, hang a pic on the bulliten board there asking for any info on the car. Check with the machine shops in the area the car came from. Same thing with the bulliten board at the machine shop. Ask the local car guys for contacts that may have raced when the car was on the track. There may be some old guy that has all the answers, you just have to find him.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Thank you Tony. That sounds like a plan. Thanks again everyone!! I really do appreciate all of your help.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

I would also try to short circuit the search and go with a title history search here in PA. The form is DL-135 IIRC, and will cost $5 and needs to be notarized. This form is available on the PA site:

http://www.dmv.state.pa.us/pdotforms...rms/dl-135.pdf

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

They made a bunch of BE axles at the same time, since they are put in a not so common car the date codes for the BE axles are limited. Maybe Kurt can clearify if the datecodes on this one falls with in the range of know BE axles.

Jan

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

0610 G2 is exactly as other known BE's!

Keep digging April!
[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
~ Pete

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Awesome!! Thanks, I will definitely keep digging. :-)

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Yup, known axle code.

Everything I see points to this being a COPO. That and $3 will get you a coffee. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif[/img]

I assume the car had/has a console?
http://www.camaros.org/options.shtml#id

It's not in the Yenko order group, IMO.

Re: Need help - 69 COPO Camaro?
 

Thanks Kurt. LOL, I think that's worth more than a cup of coffee coming from you, besides what car person doesn't love coffee. I didn't think it would be a Yenko either. Still trying to do some research on it's history. Hopefully I will find out more about it. Now that the front fenders are back on, I'll try to get some exterior pics posted in the next day or so.