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Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
Stefano...I appreciate your response..the fact that you did not answer my specific question asking if private verbal/handshake deals are ever made between auctioneers and sellers ín order to protect the sellers speaks for itself.
I am 98% certain that I remember a thread regarding this. I do not know what the big secret is now. In my last thread, I asked if this ever happens..not any specific dealings with any specific auction company or persons. Unfortunatly, I am terrible at searching these forums or I would search and copy the post where one of the posters on this thread stated that a deal had been made between auctioneer and seller as to guaranteeing a minimum total sale price protecting the seller of the blue RS ZL-1. (If I am misquoting You, I apologize) By not answering my question it only leaves doubt in my mind and sure as heck makes me feel like some shenanigans may occur during some these auctions.After the RG fiasco with the ZL-1 and hearing about this, I sure as heck will steer clear of the whole auction venue in the future.... And Matt...with all due respect, as far as your quote....I don't care what kind of hand shake or verbal deal you have¨ Regardless if at an auction or anywhere else in life...When did a man´s word stop meaning anything?? My word is my character..I stand by it. Am I the only one here that disagrees with this statement?? If Kevin had a verbal agreement with the auction company and it was not witheld, I think he has every right to be very upset. Verbal agreements are binding contracts in a court of law. again, jmhi Max |
Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
And Matt...with all due respect, as far as your quote....I don't care what kind of hand shake or verbal deal you have¨ Regardless if at an auction or anywhere else in life...When did a man´s word stop meaning anything?? My word is my character..I stand by it. Am I the only one here that disagrees with this statement?? If Kevin had a verbal agreement with the auction company and it was not witheld, I think he has every right to be very upset. Verbal agreements are binding contracts in a court of law. again, jmhi Max </div></div> Sad to say but in this day in age this isn't the case anymore. People don't take "their word" seriously. I find it hard these days to find anyone that sticks to their word. -Matt |
Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: iluv69s</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Stefano...I appreciate your response..the fact that you did not answer my specific question asking if private verbal/handshake deals are ever made between auctioneers and sellers ín order to protect the sellers speaks for itself.
</div></div> I thought I did answer that question prior? "There was absolutely no agreement with me or R&S to protect any of your cars, prior to the auction." I have a series of texts and emails regarding this situation and not once is there a discussion of a guarantee or protection. We did however discuss estimated expectations for the collection. I am not a lawyer and don't want to pretend to be one. I personally do not recall EVER consigning a car to a collector car auction, on just a handshake and without a written contract, nor have I ever seen a reason not to have one? They are designed to protect both buyers and sellers from any such issues and clearly spell out the terms, between all of the parties involved. The contracts have certainly changed over time, but all I have seen have the standard legal clauses in which the only valid contract is that which is in writing and any verbal agreements are null and void, unless put in writing. R&S would not accept a no reserve vehicle with a buy back option. There was no deal verbal or written to protect any of Kevin's cars with the auction. If and when a "reserve" deal is changed on the block a new contract is signed right then and there. "Regardless if at an auction or anywhere else in life...When did a man´s word stop meaning anything?? My word is my character..I stand by it. Am I the only one here that disagrees with this statement??" We stand by our word, always have and always will! Our family has had a dealer licence for over 30 years, we have baught, built, restored and sold more than just a few cars. |
Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
"Hit me and I'll sue. Always the same answer.Oh by the way I see you sent your boy over here to print off the whole thread don't forget I did the same and throwing around the alcohol/drunk inuendos don't help you much."
Has anyone threatened anyone else with legal action at this point. I know that I haven't? |
Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 70 Forest Green Zee</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fast67VelleN2O</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't care what kind of hand shake or verbal deal you have with someone prior to your car going across the auction block. If it is going through at NO RESERVE, you should expect that something may happen where someone would actually win it at less than what you would like to get it for.
Why run it at NO RESERVE if you want a minimum amout for the car? The only person at fault here is the SELLER. No one else. </div></div> I agree with this 100% If the seller had a set minimum price he wanted for this car, he should have run it with a reserve plain and simple. He chose not to and got less than he expected....sorry but it's the sellers own fault and he has no reason to be complaining here, it's his own fault!!! </div></div> Pretty much sums it up. |
Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
I think there's a definite place for "no reserve" at the auctions. No reserve is a higher risk but potentially high reward option. Auctions are not like the car corral at a swap meet. There's a living, breathing aspect to them that is unique. "No reserve" tells buyers that the car is GOING TO SELL and it COULD BE YOU. On a car such as this, a seller would hope that a veritable CROWD of people will bid it up intially and that eventually, 2 or 3 people with big checkbooks, healthy egos, and a perhaps a couple of gin and tonics will feel the NEED to own that car. The energy in the room, as much as the car itself, often drives the notably big numbers.
If there 5 cars in a row that don't hit their reserve, you can FEEL the energy leave the room. You can see the people check their phones and head to the bar. I think "no reserve" is still a very effective strategy for larger, quality collections being thinned or liquidated. It gets the people there, interested, and the energy stays up. Plus you have to look at your total take, and compare it to your expectations. Most dealers I know that bring cars to auction regularly bring a half dozen. One or two (often unexpectedly) ring the bell, one or two take it in the chin, and the rest do OK. They average out. If you obsess about the ones that went "cheap", its not the venue or strategy for you. There will ALWAYS be a similar but markedly inferior car to yours that will bring more money, often at the same auction. Why? Because its an auction, and thats how it goes. If you just have one car, you don't have the luxury of averaging out, you might just be left crying in your beer. Or throwing it, if thats how you roll. If there wasn't a benefit to running no reserve, there wouldn't be talk about secret backdoor deals. Deals that offer the perks of "no reserve" but eliminate the risk. But unless you ran a major bank during the last 10 years, you really can't have it both ways, can you? JMO TOM |
Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
Stefano, I appreciate your response and I realize that You in fact did state that there was not any deal made to protect THIS car. But I have also read the other side of the story that seems to state there was in-fact a deal made. That is why I asked if these type of deals are EVER made at other auctions that You are aware of, which I do not recall seeing a response. Please correct me if I am wrong.
Maybe somone can find the thread on the blue RS ZL-1. I am curios if the auctioneers agreement to protect the sellers total sale price was a written agreement or just a verbal agreement. Based on what You are asying, it must have been a written agreement, AND IF SO, I THINK THAT SHOULD BE TOLD TO ALL POTENTIAL BUYERS BEFORE WASTING THIER TIME ON A NO-RESERVE AUCTION THAT IS NOT REALLY A NO-RESERVE AUCTION. I want to make this perfectly clear. Of all the car dealers that I have run across, be it on the internet or in person or publications, based on everything I have seen and heard, You are one of, if not THE most respected muscle/classic car dealers that I have run across. Like Matt said, in this day and age, it is difficult to find someone that puts thier word before the mighty dollar. Believe me, I am apalled that these type of buy back deals are (possibly) made between sellers and the auction companies. That is the reason I was trying to bring them to light, if in-fact they do exist. I do not think it is fair to someone who spends thier time and money to travel to a no-reserve auction only to see the car of thier dreams bought back by the owner or an agent of him or the auction company. This is not about defending anyone or picking sides for me.. Obviuosly Kevin made a big mistake..whether it was to place his car in a no-reserve auction or whether it was trusting someones elses word without a written contract, éither way it was HIS mistake. At this point it is a matter of he said-she said. And Tom C, I believe Kevin was responding to another members post asking the question why he put the car on a no-reserve auction..at which time he explained his side of the story. Who better to respond than Kevin himself? Although I tend to believe Stefano because of everything I have known about him over the years, It is obvious that Kevin feels that there may have been some kind of deal made. Is it possible that Stefano was not aware of such deal???... And I totally agree with Tom406 on the no-reserve aspect..many decisions have been made/changed as to the amount someone is willing to pay for a car at the moment the car is on the block. Especially when they know that just one more bid may take the car of thier dreams home. Believe me, when the camera at the BJ auction arrives in front of a potential buyer, especially if he is with his wife/girlfriend/family, at times ego takes over and some cars sell for riduculous money...everyone wants to be a TV star. I have personally attended auctions and ended up bidding more than I originally told myself I was going to bid at the moment the item was on the block.I am sure this happens VERY often. This thread has now spun out of control and We are now officially kicking a dead horse !!! max |
Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
What about the next time a "Kevin Hand" car goes through an auction at no reserve? It would be hard to bid on one once this has all come to light. Who is gonna bid when they know there will almost certainly be a shill bidder against them?
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Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
The blue RS ZL1 was in a collection that was sold at reserve.
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Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fast67VelleN2O</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about the next time a "Kevin Hand" car goes through an auction at no reserve? It would be hard to bid on one once this has all come to light. Who is gonna bid when they know there will almost certainly be a shill bidder against them? </div></div>
my point exactly..and unfortunately I believe this happens all the time..... |
Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The blue RS ZL1 was in a collection that was sold at reserve. </div></div>
Wow, I guess my memory is failing me. I remember everyone being very surprised by the low outcome of that auction..and also the low price of the yellow Zl-1...Thanks for clarifying that Charlie..I stand corrected...but do I not recall that there was some deal made for the auction company guaranteeing a minimum total for the collection?? Or am I thinking of the wrong thread?? At this point it does not really matter... |
Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
I feel like I keep repeating myself. The auctions I have recently worked with as well as currently work with will not accept a No Reserve consignment, from a customer, with a buy back deal.
Even at the auctions with ALL no reserve cars, people will find ways to buy their owns cars back, however they are usually subject to, buyer and sellers commission, as well as potential state sales tax and the money has to be put out for the purchase before any funds are released back to the seller, which is usually 30 days. |
Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
Sorry for the (my)confusion Stefano..and thanks for clearing that up....
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Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
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Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fast67VelleN2O</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about the next time a "Kevin Hand" car goes through an auction at no reserve? It would be hard to bid on one once this has all come to light. Who is gonna bid when they know there will almost certainly be a shill bidder against them? </div></div>
The same people who bid on cars that haven't met reserve. We are all big boys and girls. If you don't like the risk, don't take it. If the price is too high or you don't think things are above board, don't bid. This is not an auction problem, it's a consignor problem. You can't prevent people from shill bidding, cutting side deals, misrepresenting the condition or authenticity of a car. You either accept it or choose not to participate. Unfortunately some lessons are expensive, take from it what you can. |
Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
Just bid up to what you are willing to pay.
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Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
In the End.......I would hope that No Reserve actually means "No Reserve"..........Just the Facts Mam, Just the Facts..
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Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
There were two mistakes made. Don't let another car dealer consign your car at an auction. There is no benefit, it will not sell for more. As a previous car dealer, he should have known better. Always sell as a reserve to protect, unless six figures is pocket change to you. You can always drop the reserve on the block if you want. Roger
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Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
Oy vey!
Remind me to never buy a car from you guys. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/naughty.gif[/img] |
Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: budnate</div><div class="ubbcode-body">who is SB and CC ??? </div></div>
http://www.uglymales.com/wc/wp-conte...scemi-ugly.jpghttp://www.myclassiclyrics.com/artis..._Biography.jpg sorry, I had to lighten this up a little. |
Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
Well I got sucked into this thread and came away with the thought something odd must have gone on at that auction. I don't think the color was that 'different' to justify a big price delta over an orange or blue one. A gold yenko camaro or nova or chevelle are all cool in that color. period. Anything more that a 10% price difference to a 'blue' is about all I would ever beleive. I would take it over phantom green myself.
I would not ever take a car to russo and steel because where o where all the 'in the know' guys telling the auction house, this thing should sell higher? did they not know this thing should go higher and spend more time working it (shouldn't the consigner be tugging on the houses arm to work this more? this price for a yenko is too low? I would be screaming if it was my car, don't drop that gavel!) Either they are totally uniformed (I thus would not want them gaveling for my car, unless in a reserve auction) or something fishy happened OR the market for yenkos has tanked. Its one of those 3 things in my opinion. I would only go to mecum after what I see happened here. |
Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
I understand your opinions and perspective. It's really difficult to discern exactly what happens at an auction when you are actually there and much more so when you are not. However, your conclusions are not fact. They are simply your opinions.
This thread started as a promotion for a member's cars which were going to be auctioned in Arizona at R&S at " No Reserve". "No Reserve" will always be a major risk to a seller and the least level of risk to an auction. I assumed that risk for some of my own cars at that auction, while I chose to go with a reserve on some of the others. The auction did work with me on my reserve cars and we got them sold across the block. ( special deal ticket signed on the block ) There are numerous reasons why some consignors may or may not decide to go no reserve. The option with R&S, as well as others is always up to the consignor. So, if and when someone may be looking to turn a substantial collection or even a single car into cash, quickly, selling at No reserve is one very risky option. Nickey Chicago, Inc. and Russo and Steele have been unjustly accused of maliciously manipulating the auction, by Kevin and his mouth piece. This is simply not true and the opposite of what actually did happen. Now, if KH had simply stated that he was not happy with the out come or the level of service which was provide, and that in the future would take his business elsewhere, that would have been very different. I have answered all the questions put forth, to the best of my ability, in order to clear my good name. While this is a hobby to many it is my business and the way I provide for my family. Kevin,IMO this would be a good time to put egos aside and for you to make a public apology. |
Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
Anyone who has met, has dealings with, or done business with Stefano knows that his character and business practices are above reproach......
So.....A person who contractually signs his car to sell at No Reserve at Auction has no one to blame but themselves.......Pretty easy to throw stones and dump beer, not so easy to accept "Responsibility"...........Nuff Said!! |
Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kwhizz</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Anyone who has met, has dealings with, or done business with Stefano knows that his character and business practices are above reproach......
So.....A person who contractually signs his car to sell at No Reserve at Auction has no one to blame but themselves.......Pretty easy to throw stones and dump beer, not so easy to accept "Responsibility"...........Nuff Said!! </div></div> I totally agree with Ken....anyone who knows Steve Bimby knows that he a man of integrity and a man of his word. I feel very fortunate to know Steve personally and I wouldn't hesitate for one minute to buy a car from him or have him sell a car for me. Our hobby and the classic car market in general would suffer a great loss if Steve ever decided to leave this industry and pursue other ventures. |
Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
I don't personally know any of the parties involved, but I can see how this thread has the potential to soil some reputations. For those of us who weren't part to the conflict, it's realy not fair to draw any conclusions. It takes so long to establish a good name - let's move on.
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Re: Kevin Hand Collector Car Collection at Auction
Yep..it's startin' to go way beyond possible smoke and mirrors deals at auctions in General ..........
Bottom line is you've gotta have a pair of steel cahonies to put up your car at no reserve and hope everyone is on the same page...... Maybe you guys should duke this out behind close doors... |
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