Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

Anyone have a picture of #61 as a sand rail?

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

[ QUOTE ]
That car sold for 800K and there are people that would pay 1.2 1.3. Price was supposedly 1.5 but I'm told even that won't buy it. That is the 7000 mile car mentioned earlier. That is about the best one out there....

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Charley, I'm not trying to stir the pot, but if that RS ZL-1 sold for $800K at Mecum in May 2008, and the guy has had offers for $1.2 million, why didn't those people bid on it at the May 2008 Mecum Auction? I can't believe the price on this car would have almost doubled to $1.5 million in this economy. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif I recall a thread back in May 2008 on this site where everyone speculated the blue RS ZL-1 would bring $1.5 mil, but it sold for half that, and the yellow ZL-1 was expected to bring $800K+, and it went for almost half that as well.

Again, just wondering where (or how) these cars are worth $1 million + anymore? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif

Last year at our big Indian Uprising Pontiac Show, a nationally known Pontiac appraiser, along with Dana Mecum, appraised a 69 Trans Am convertible at $1.5 million. Just not to sure who's going to buy that in this economy...

On another note, if any car deserves to be a $1 million dollar car, it's a 69 ZL-1. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

Here is some pictures of the number 61 as a sand drag car.

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

Concerning the sand drag '69 ZL-1.......that really has to be one of the strangest fates to ever befall a real ZL-1!

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

Isn't it though. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

Before the RS ZL1 went to auction I proposed a trade plus cash that would have given them 1.2.mil but they wanted it to sell at auction. I didn't get my ducks in a row to bid because I was told Rob Walton and others were going to bid on it. Hard to outbid Walmart. The big money buyers never showed up at the auction. There are two members of this site that I know of that will pay 1.2 mil for that car. The yellow ZL1 has already resold at more than it's sales price. The yellow car I believe can be had now for 800K. They only made two yellow ZL1's. The Berger ZL1 I believe has had a offer of over 1 mil.

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

I can tell you that there were at least 3 people that have been turned down on buying the blue RS for above $1.2m- I tendered an offer for a client this past April that was immediately rejected by the owner. We can all speculate why nobody else bid at the auction, but the fact is some serious buyers were not there and are willing to pay more to this day. The new owner (Scott) made a great purchase. I, too, had been told there were absentee bids in excess of $1m, so I was not there to bid nor was I on the phone. In fact, I was racing at Road America. I did buy the triple black LS6 convertible from Dave's collection over the phone during the Mecum sale. I should have stayed on the line. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

As you can see from this thread, the amount of ZL1's with no stories is far less than 69. And of the ones that are "good", how many are original paint? Bingo- the one that sold at Mecum. We can all play armchair quarterback with values until we are blue in the face, where the rubber meets the road is when a willing buyer and a willing seller agree on a price and a car changes hands. There is a reason most of these high end transactions are private, and a reason so few of these special cars end up at live auctions. Most don't need to go looking for a buyer, nor do they need to pay the fees or run the risk of something like a no-reserve sale. Just my humble opinion.

Colin

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

https://www.yenko.net/attachments/438...cepictures.jpg

I gotta admit.... this car holds more value to me than any other of the ZL-1's as it is the only sand rail drag car. And it looks badass performing the part in those pictures. Better history than most cars....

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

[ QUOTE ]
https://www.yenko.net/attachments/438...cepictures.jpg

I gotta admit.... this car holds more value to me than any other of the ZL-1's as it is the only sand rail drag car. And it looks badass performing the part in those pictures. Better history than most cars....

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Agreed. But would a sand rail ZL-1 be worth more if it was sold at Yenko?

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

Hey, could you imagine somebody dragging you out to a sand drag race, seeing this car and noticing a feature or two on it that perks your interest so you jot down the dashboard VIN to check it against "The List" when you get home! What a surprise that would've been!

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

I got one better #61 was sold to a farmer who was harvesting his crops and his machinery broke down so he went to the bank to get a loan for the repairs. There was a used car lot next door to the bank and the camaro was sitting there, Dennis liked the car so he asked for more money to buy the camaro NOT KNOWING IT WAS A ZL1. Years later a man named ED C call and wanted to buy the car, at that time the car was not for sale and he would not sell it so Ed told him what it was WHAT A SHOCK a real ZL1. This car has a lot of great stories about it the sand dragging is just one of them.

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

Hi Mike..Nice to see you here... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

Colin,

Very well said…those cars almost exclusively trade hands privately. The collectors with the finest examples do not need to go through auction houses. A quality & legit ZL-1 is definitely a million-dollar plus car.

The elite Muscle is still highly sought after with a greater number of credible buyers than cars. It is the cobbled together clones, plain Jane and half-baked Muscle that has plummeted in value. The demand for ZL-1s, LS-6, Yenkos, W-30s, 68-69 HOs, Stage-1 and RAIV Judges and 69 TA’s etc…will always completely outpace supply. Those cars if QUALITY, REAL and DOCUMENTED will only continue to increase in value regardless of economic conditions.

The actual problem is finding an authentic & quality no-excuses car today. People with the finest cars generally WILL NOT sell. It is like finding the preverbal needle in the haystack. Most sales for top-flight cars are behind closed doors anyway as Colin mentioned, so it is difficult to get an accurate price gauge. The cars predominately going through the auction houses now are just that… professional auction cars!

As one who follows Muscle convertibles especially the Olds market closely. I can tell you that primarily all of the W-30 ragtops that I’ve seen go through the auction houses are professional auction retreads with terrible histories and NO quality docs. Those cars again primarily exclusively change hands privately. So to make a long story short a high quality car is still worth big $$$$ but finding that car is an extremely difficult proposition.

RM

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

Are there any of the original 69 ZL1 not accounted for?

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

No, there are 84 of them for sale in Arizona next week https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

Ha!

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

[ QUOTE ]
The elite Muscle is still highly sought after with a greater number of credible buyers than cars. It is the cobbled together clones, plain Jane and half-baked Muscle that has plummeted in value. The demand for ZL-1s, LS-6, Yenkos, W-30s, 68-69 HOs, Stage-1 and RAIV Judges and 69 TA’s etc…will always completely outpace supply. Those cars if QUALITY, REAL and DOCUMENTED will only continue to increase in value regardless of economic conditions.


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I agree, except I would leave the 68/69 Hurst/Olds out of that equation, they aren't in the same league as the other cars you mentioned.

One of the things that really effects the value of a particular car is the quality of the restoration. Some local hack shop restoring a rare car actually lowers its value, verses a properly done restoration, using all original parts (not the Taiwanese repro stuff that permeates the hobby today), and using knowledgeable restorers familiar with the actual make and model of the particular car. The quickie resto, by a local hack shop, is what many of the auction cars are today.

The other factor I've noticed is that a car with low mileage, when that car has been repainted multiple times, doesn't garner the premium is used to. I believe the logic here is that if the car has been repainted, body panels and interior removed for a quickie restoration, the low mileage factor no longer warrants the huge premium they used to back around 2006.

Cars such as what Colin Comer has, that have original paint, are going to continue to climb in value.

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

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I agree, except I would leave the 68/69 Hurst/Olds out of that equation, they aren't in the same league as the other cars you mentioned.

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REALLY????… https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/crazy.gif I would think that one of the first GM A bodied cars to break the 400 cu in limit featuring a legacy directly tied to Hurst Performance, low production volume and often cited as one of the pinnacles of Oldsmobile performance would be significant. It is funny that most other collectors and credible automotive writers see the 68-69 Hurst/Olds cars in that light. But we may all be mistaken in our perceptions.

Thanks for setting me straight! RM

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

[ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
I agree, except I would leave the 68/69 Hurst/Olds out of that equation, they aren't in the same league as the other cars you mentioned.

[/ QUOTE ]


REALLY????… https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/crazy.gif I would think that one of the first GM A bodied cars to break the 400 cu in limit featuring a legacy directly tied to Hurst Performance, low production volume and often cited as one of the pinnacles of Oldsmobile performance would be significant. It is funny that most other collectors and credible automotive writers see the 68-69 Hurst/Olds cars in that light. But we may all be mistaken in our perceptions.

Thanks for setting me straight! RM

[/ QUOTE ]

I believe he means monetarily not in the same league. Have you seen one of them sell in the 500K to a million dollar range?

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

Agreed…coupes of the before mentioned LS-6 Chevelle, RAIV Judge, 1970 GSX, W-30s and 1969 TA’s generally top out at slightly over six figures and not in the range of Zl-1s, Yenkos or convertible models. But I would definitely classify the 68-69 Hurst/Olds cars as equivalent to the any of the above mentioned GM coupes historically and monetarily as well. Thanx RM

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

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Are there any of the original 69 ZL1 not accounted for?

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Are they all accounted for??

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Are there any of the original 69 ZL1 not accounted for?

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Are they all accounted for??

[/ QUOTE ]


some of the cars are known destroyed, some were stolen from the dealer when new..and still a few are unaccounted for I believe.

I have a copy of Ed C.s list from about 2002 I believe and I know atleast one or two cars have been found since then. But that still leaves a few missing.

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/show...0/fpart/1/vc/1

This is one of the threads for it, can't find the other, I have a list of the missing/stolen ZL1's and their vin's in my wallet -- checking every Camaro I come across lol

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

Happy huntin'

The Merollis VINs are rumored to be reg in CDN. #24 was reported junked.

#5 124379N 608381
#8 124379N 608761
#10 124379N 608969
#19 124379N 609530
#20 124379N 609599
#21 124379N 609651
#29 124379N 610123
#39 124379N 613787
#41 124379N 615229
#42 124379N 615242
#43 124379N 615362
#44 124379N 618396
#48 124379N 618902
#52 124379N 620934
#67 124379N 644314
Merollis Chev
#24 124379N 609838
#32 124379N 610515
#37 124379N 612963
#50 124379N 620498

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

Are those sand drags pictures from Riverside? That car looks familiar...

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

Thanks William,

I'm sure your list is probably more accurate than the (old)list I have which came from Ed C's site back then. I was going to post the notes from the old list I have..it is interestng that he even listed the first names and initial of the prior owners of these cars...some heavy hitters in the musclecar hobby from that time...

One thing I would add is this. In a conversation with Ed C. years ago, he told me that "if he had no record or knowledge of the car existing, he listed the cars as 'destroyed' on his list although he suspected that some of the cars still existed".

No need to post an old list now....


Now we all will be checking every 69 Camaro that we can find ..in a field..at a garage..at the track...I'm surprised that that many are still unaccounted for....
Who knows when the next one will be found ?? I'm sure there is atleast one or two still out there!!

Thanks again William !!

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

For those of you that do not think they could ever find a real ZL-1....an interesting story about a recent ZL-1 find just in the past few years..I beleive it is ZL-1 number 35 or 36??...and correct me if I am wrong on the details..
Tha car was purchased as a non-numbers 69 Z-28 with a small block and the Z-28 emblems and all. Later was found to have the VIN number on the title 1 digit incorrect all these years...the car's VIN was actually one of the real ZL-1's....therefore no-one ever found the car with the real ZL-1 VIN # when they did a title/registration search for the car.
Could I have worded that any worse??

Someone can fill in the details...I was told about this car by Jerry M...but I dont remember the exact details...

But They are still out thereeee!!!!!

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

No doubt. The mis-registration story is true and has now occurred twice. That's how #54 was very reasonably purchased.

Unfortunately the known race cars are probably still around [#5, #41, #42] but way cut up. Some did show registration years ago [#8, #20] probably still exist. Two others were reported stolen [#39, #43] but only one is still registered to an insurance firm. #29, #52, #67 were crashed and probably junked.

Engines from #10, #21, #41 still exist. The engine from #4 [19N608214] was in a '71 Camaro PRO car sold to Jim Dunn in CA in 1972. Would be very interested in info about it.

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

Regarding the cars that were "stolen" from the dealer. Weren't these cars extremely hard to sell? What if the dealer made them disappear and collected the insurance on them?

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

http://www.camaros.org/copo.shtml

"The telling blow for COPO 9560 was the price. Gibb is quoted as saying he believed the cars would list for around $4900. Unfortunately for Gibb, the new edict at Chevrolet came through that options had to be priced according to production costs. Just the "HIGH PERFORMANCE UNIT" option was priced at $4160.50. (For reasons unknown, subsequent ZL-1s were priced at $4160.15) The mandatory power disc brakes and transmission option pushed sticker prices over $7300. This was far more than a well equipped 1969 Corvette and would be roughly equivalent to today's Z06 Corvette. Not only would the cars not sell, Gibb likely was unable to pay for them. Gibb plead his case, and in an unprecedented move, Chevrolet agreed to the return of many ZL-1 Camaros. The cars were shipped back to Norwood, Ohio beginning in May 1969 and Chevrolet began to shop the cars around. Gibb also wholesaled cars directly to other dealers who would soon learn what he knew: they were sale-proof. Many dealers removed and sold the ZL-1 engines, replacing them with iron 396 or 427s, adding stripes and mag wheels, doing whatever it took to sell the white elephants. Several were stolen and never recovered. Gibb sold his last new 1969 ZL-1 Camaro in 1972 (with the aid of a $1000 rebate from Chevrolet). It was re-possessed and returned it to Gibb in 1973."

"Fred Gibb may have believed the ZL-1 Camaro was his exclusively. Compounding his difficulty in selling the cars was the fact that other Chevrolet dealers had learned of the COPO and ordered 19 additional ZL-1 Camaros. Some of these cars had more optional equipment. Many of these Camaros found the same cold reception as the Gibbs' cars and suffered the same fate: engine swaps, theft, modifications."

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

It's NOT #35---that ZL-1 is MINE
the Zl-1 you are talking about is #36, I did see it before
it was restored.

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

[ QUOTE ]
Agreed…coupes of the before mentioned LS-6 Chevelle, RAIV Judge, 1970 GSX, W-30s and 1969 TA’s generally top out at slightly over six figures and not in the range of Zl-1s, Yenkos or convertible models. But I would definitely classify the 68-69 Hurst/Olds cars as equivalent to the any of the above mentioned GM coupes historically and monetarily as well. Thanx RM

[/ QUOTE ]

Nicely done RAIV Judges are bringing up to $150k. You can get a nice #'s RAIII 69 T/A for less than $100k. 68 Firebird and GTO RAII cars are up there, too, but rare as he11, so hard to put a price on them.

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

[ QUOTE ]
It's NOT #35---that ZL-1 is MINE
the Zl-1 you are talking about is #36, I did see it before
it was restored.

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Thanks for clearing that up....I knew it was another green car like my #34 car. Wasn't sure if it was #35 or #36. I was not sure which it was...I believe I saw your car at Carlisle a few years ago. Really nice !!!!

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

[ QUOTE ]
http://www.camaros.org/copo.shtml

"The telling blow for COPO 9560 was the price. Gibb is quoted as saying he believed the cars would list for around $4900. Unfortunately for Gibb, the new edict at Chevrolet came through that options had to be priced according to production costs. Just the "HIGH PERFORMANCE UNIT" option was priced at $4160.50. (For reasons unknown, subsequent ZL-1s were priced at $4160.15) The mandatory power disc brakes and transmission option pushed sticker prices over $7300. This was far more than a well equipped 1969 Corvette and would be roughly equivalent to today's Z06 Corvette. Not only would the cars not sell, Gibb likely was unable to pay for them. Gibb plead his case, and in an unprecedented move, Chevrolet agreed to the return of many ZL-1 Camaros. The cars were shipped back to Norwood, Ohio beginning in May 1969 and Chevrolet began to shop the cars around. Gibb also wholesaled cars directly to other dealers who would soon learn what he knew: they were sale-proof. Many dealers removed and sold the ZL-1 engines, replacing them with iron 396 or 427s, adding stripes and mag wheels, doing whatever it took to sell the white elephants. Several were stolen and never recovered. Gibb sold his last new 1969 ZL-1 Camaro in 1972 (with the aid of a $1000 rebate from Chevrolet). It was re-possessed and returned it to Gibb in 1973."

"Fred Gibb may have believed the ZL-1 Camaro was his exclusively. Compounding his difficulty in selling the cars was the fact that other Chevrolet dealers had learned of the COPO and ordered 19 additional ZL-1 Camaros. Some of these cars had more optional equipment. Many of these Camaros found the same cold reception as the Gibbs' cars and suffered the same fate: engine swaps, theft, modifications."

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FYI...Car #34 was sent back to Norwood plant by Gibb in May 69 and reinvoiced to Govan's Chevrolet. The car finally sold in June of 1970....for 4800 dollars!!! Had to be way below dealer cost I would think !!!

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

if you ran across one of the ones that was supposidly stolen, how could you register it (when found)? could someone from way way back have claim to it and tie it up in court?

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you ran across one of the ones that was supposidly stolen, how could you register it (when found)? could someone from way way back have claim to it and tie it up in court?

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That is a serious possibility. The higher the value...the higher the likelihood of old ownership issues popping up.

Just think what happens whenever a sunken treasure ship is found. Even though maritime law is an obscure area of practice, the original insurance company or whomever has bought their rights over the past 400 years always ends up being a part of the "payout" that inevitably occurs.

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

[ QUOTE ]
if you ran across one of the ones that was supposidly stolen, how could you register it (when found)? could someone from way way back have claim to it and tie it up in court?

[/ QUOTE ]

As long as you understand that possession of stolen property is a continuos crime, you can expect some knock on your door if you register one, or found to have one. Most likely after you spend your life savings restoring it ---LOL

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

HI you would have to come to canada to get the owner ship

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

My #35 was also returned to Norwood then to Sutliff Chevrolet in Harrisburg, Pa. They added a rear spoiler and rally wheels to try and sell it. Information given to me by Mr.Bruce Larson, he also told me they had him take the car to the drag strip along with his race car to try and sell the ZL-1. The dealer finally sold it in September 1971.

Re: CURRENT VALUES OF CAMARO 427 ALUMINUM ENGINE C
 

Neat stuff Mark!