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Re: L89 Nova???????
According to Fran Preve, Tonawanda had gotten WAY to big. There was a need to cut it down to size, eliminate versions so they didn't make so many different KINDS of engines. This meant dropping suffix codes (versions), and combining others. Where possible they made one engine fit many models rather than one version for each model. The program was called "de-proliferation" and apparently the plant workers loved it for it's simplicity. Lot's of disruptive production sequence going on in the last half of 69-plant strikes,complete A body reskin,and 71 emissions rules coming in that would affect which engines would be available.
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Re: L89 Nova???????
Thats the article I remember!! So that build sheet is fake??? And how about that hood?? Has that been documented?? Imagine the weight savings with alum. heads and a glass hood!!!
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Re: L89 Nova???????
Suffix code on that Chevelle is CRW.
CRN 1970 Chevelle 454 360 Mt LS-5 HP CRQ 1970 Chevelle 454 360 TH LS-5 HP CRR 1970 Chevelle 454 450 TH LS-6 SHP CRS 1970 Chevelle 454 450 TH LS-6 SHP, alum hd CRT 1970 Chevelle 454 360 Mt LS-5 HP CRV 1970 Chevelle 454 450 Mt LS-6 HP CRW 1972 Chevelle 454 270 TH LS-5 AR I dont know? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif |
Re: L89 Nova???????
That's true in some cases. The prevailing thought among most Nova people is that the most likley time line for L89 novas would be 68, but best chance would be 69 for significant nbrs. That beggs the question that if Fred Gibb, who was as plugged into GM performance as he was to build the 68 COPO autos, why didn't he order them with al. heads. That's 60#s off the nose.
There is no code specific suffix for al. heads in 68, 69 Nova applications. Could they have shared one with the Camaro? Maybe, but it seems unlikley. To the best of my knowledge, no window stickers have been found with the al. head RPO option on any Nova, while many are known for Camaros, and Chevelles. I've seen invoices that show a cost for al. heads on Novas, but this always seems to lead to a dealer installation. Now, you're preachin to the choir here, as I believe there may have been some produced, but we simply haven't found any that pass all the criteria. |
Re: L89 Nova???????
After awhile you have to look at the truth. It's about time you came around to my thinking. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif
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Re: L89 Nova???????
[ QUOTE ]
.....That beggs the question that if Fred Gibb, who was as plugged into GM performance as he was to build the 68 COPO autos, why didn't he order them with al. heads. That's 60#s off the nose. [/ QUOTE ] Even if aluminum heads could have been ordered in 68, 60 pounds off of a Nova would have put them at the heavy end of the next higher class for NHRA drag racing. That wouldn't have been a good situation, even if aluminum heads were a possibility. |
Re: L89 Nova???????
As stated in other threads I've always wanted to be an L89 Nova believer but have to admit the more we debate it, the closer I am to lining up for a ticket on Howie's bus..
What was it Bob Johnston had to say in past threads on this subject...didn't he say he tried to place orders and it was a no-go?. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif ~ Pete |
Re: L89 Nova???????
MQ 1968 Chevy II 396 375 Mt HP
MR 1968 Chevy II 396 350 TH HP MX 1968 Chevy II 396 350 Mt HP JF 1969 Chevy II 396 350 Mt HP JH 1969 Chevy II 396 375 Mt SHP JI 1969 Chevy II 396 350 TH HP JL 1969 Chevy II 396 375 TH SHP JM 1969 Chevy II 396 TH JU 1969 Chevy II 396 PG KA 1969 Chevy II 396 350 Mt HP KC 1969 Chevy II 396 375 Mt SHP KE 1969 Chevy II 396 Mt CKO 1970 Nova 396 375 Mt L-78 SHP CKP 1970 Nova 396 375 TH L-89 SHP CKQ 1970 Nova 396 375 Mt L-78 SHP CKT 1970 Chevy II 396 375 Mt L-89 SHP CKU 1970 Chevy II 396 375 Mt L-89 SHP CPS 1971 Nova 454 425 400 LS-6 CPT 1971 Nova 454 425 4sp LS-6 |
Re: L89 Nova???????
As stated in other threads I've always wanted to be an L89 Nova believer but have to admit the more we debate it, the closer I am to lining up for a ticket on Howie's bus..
Check the tires on that bus before you get on...they might need air https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif |
Re: L89 Nova???????
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Re: L89 Nova???????
A 396 powerglide nova Tom?I have to agree with John Brown ;it would place the nova in a different stock eliminator category.I always wanted to believe an L-89 exist;but I am almost ready to hop on the Howie bus ;when its leave?chris
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Re: L89 Nova???????
Why do they have Engine Suffix Code if the car doesn't exist?
Heavy Chevy Chevelle LS7 -71 doesn't exist eider, or? CPY 1971 Chevelle 454 425 400 LS-6 10 released CPZ 1971 Chevelle 454 425 400 LS-6 4 released Nikke |
Re: L89 Nova???????
[ QUOTE ]
Why do they have Engine Suffix Code if the car doesn't exist? Heavy Chevy Chevelle LS7 -71 doesn't exist eider, or? CPY 1971 Chevelle 454 425 400 LS-6 10 released CPZ 1971 Chevelle 454 425 400 LS-6 4 released Nikke [/ QUOTE ] See my above post,those were on the books but on the books doesn't mean production. The emissions standards made those future engine configs null and void. Not sure where those stats are from? They put LS6's in the 71 MY vette only. The 70 Chevelle/Elco w LS6 was the only year anything other than a vette had top bragging rights for H.P. |
Re: L89 Nova???????
I have talked to a guy that has a L89 aluminum head 68 Nova. He said if I remember correctly, the head's were in the trunk along with the aluminum water pump. He is the second owner of the car and the original owner still has all the paper work. With the dealer invoice to back it up. Would this be considered an L89 car? His name is Chris Robbins he work's at Legendary Interior's. I know he is a member of this site maybe he will chime in.
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Re: L89 Nova???????
I'm curious to know who was responsible for putting a set of Al.Heads in the trunk?An assembly line worker?...the receiving dealership?..the original owner on his way home from the dealership?
And were they #392's or #842's? His original paperwork could help answer alot of questions in the Hobby today. |
Re: L89 Nova???????
Alum water pump in 68?? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif
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Re: L89 Nova???????
Even if the Alum heads were put in the trunk by an "assembly line worker" that would mean the engine would be assembled, stamped and installed as an L78 motor. Why would they assemble the complete engine, install, and stamp an L89 code on the engine and not install the heads.? Would never happen in my eyes. The 68 story above sounds like somebody ordered an L78 with a set of Alum heads to be included upon delivery. The stamping (if it is original) on that 68 block would tell the story
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Re: L89 Nova???????
If I'm not mistaken, the aluminum heads were casted at the Winters Foundry in Canton, Ohio where the intakes were casted correct?? If so, I know an older fella who still resides in Canton and near the old foundry. He was telling me that back in the day of making these things many of them would "disappear" or "go over the fence" if you know what I mean.. He said lots of street racing guys back then had the aluminum components on their engines who lived around the Canton area and he said that he bets that lots are still sitting around in garages in this area..
Case in point, I think lots of these things were floating around and were put on big blocks back in the day and now people are surmising/guessing or just fabricating what they want to believe their car is, meaning a true L89 car... I do believe that there were some true L89 cars made... I also think that the dealerships may have converted the cars this way as well if the customer wanted... Just my .02 Rich |
Re: L89 Nova???????
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Re: L89 Nova???????
One of my favorite pictures of all time... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gif
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Re: L89 Nova???????
1 Attachment(s)
I think he told me the dealer installed the heads and water pump when the car was new. So My question was is this considered an L89 car or just an L78 with dealer installed aluminum heads. He claim's the original owner has all the paper work showing this? I have heard this before from my dad's friend. He was a mechanic for a local chevrolet dealership in the late 60's. He said that he installed headers on a lot of new cars back in the day and that they came in the trunk from the factory? Or maybe someone put them in the trunk when the car came to the dealer ship? The 68 L78 nova is in Western NY. His father at one time owned a couple of Dueces? Chris told me his father also worked at a chevrolet dealership and un-loaded his 68 L78 nova from the car hauler. How cool is that!
Jason |
Re: L89 Nova???????
...an L78 with dealer installed aluminum heads.
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Re: L89 Nova???????
[ QUOTE ]
I think he told me the dealer installed the heads and water pump when the car was new. So My question was is this considered an L89 car or just an L78 with dealer installed aluminum heads. He claim's the original owner has all the paper work showing this? I have heard this before from my dad's friend. He was a mechanic for a local chevrolet dealership in the late 60's. He said that he installed headers on a lot of new cars back in the day and that they came in the trunk from the factory? Or maybe someone put them in the trunk when the car came to the dealer ship? The 68 L78 nova is in Western NY. His father at one time owned a couple of Dueces? Chris told me his father also worked at a chevrolet dealership and un-loaded his 68 L78 nova from the car hauler. How cool is that! Jason [/ QUOTE ] That's Neal Robbins... the guy Frankie and I bought our Deuces from. |
Re: L89 Nova???????
That must be him. I think he said one was red and one was green. I think Chris told me he has a hugger orange duece also. But I am not sure?
Jason |
Re: L89 Nova???????
[ QUOTE ]
I think he told me the dealer installed the heads and water pump when the car was new. So My question was is this considered an L89 car or just an L78 with dealer installed aluminum heads. He claim's the original owner has all the paper work showing this? I have heard this before from my dad's friend. He was a mechanic for a local chevrolet dealership in the late 60's. He said that he installed headers on a lot of new cars back in the day and that they came in the trunk from the factory? Or maybe someone put them in the trunk when the car came to the dealer ship? The 68 L78 nova is in Western NY. His father at one time owned a couple of Dueces? Chris told me his father also worked at a chevrolet dealership and un-loaded his 68 L78 nova from the car hauler. How cool is that! Jason [/ QUOTE ] Jason, I'm originally from WNY, was the car sold new there? I can tell you for fact plenty of BB stuff went out the back door of the Tonawanda engine plant...https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif Mike |
Re: L89 Nova???????
The article I read was from years ago on the LS6 842 chevelles. They claimed at the time there may have been 3 I believe. The article talked about how Chevrolet had an issue with doing it as the LS6 was a new motor using old 842 head design. Now perhaps It's the same car that Rick P. mentions as having bogused docs. But the main subject matter of it all delt with unusually optioned cars not just L89 options. Options like liquid tire chain, optic fibre, etc. Seemed like it was a Super Chevy(not always the last word in absolutes.) If Rick N. says he believes there are none until proven so, I would agree with him. As far as novas again, they present a different problem in authenticating as there is no specific suffix code for an L89 application as there is for Camaros, Chevelles, or Corvettes. That's why if there ever were any, you would need verifiable paperwork, or a credible original owner.I understand that it sucks that original owners sometimes get "encouragement money" to remember things that weren't, or bogused docs. But unless you want to pay big money for something that isn't you'll need to be very careful. [/ QUOTE ] Rick, I agree that Fran would be most knowledgeable on Tonawandas engine build out. In 1971 there were 212 LS6 engines coded as CPW (manual trans) or CPX (automatic trans) but this included 24 engine case assemblies for warranty purposes. 188 Corvettes were fitted with LS6 engines. The breakdown seems to be 34 or 36 coded as CPX and 162 or 164 as CPW. Currently we have located 105 original, real verified LS6 Corvettes, with 14 being CPX and the balance being CPW, with the breakdown being 15 M21 ordered cars and the balance M22 equipped. |
Re: L89 Nova???????
[ QUOTE ]
After awhile you have to look at the truth. It's about time you came around to my thinking. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif [/ QUOTE ] Truth is a matter of interpretation of the evidence presented to you. Rarely is it a absolute. Especially if you're a politician. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif While we may agree on some points, I think the chances of my thinking like you in respect to most things may need another day......or two. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif Note to Ia. DOT: Please install blow tube ignition lock on previously mentioned bus registered to one K. Howie, and a digital smoke detector for varification of non smoking code compliance. Addendum: optional GPS system to monitor possible tavern stops. Enjoy your trip on the Howie magic bus. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif |
Re: L89 Nova???????
So what about the glass hood option??? Anyone verify if that really existed?? Obviously Chevy made the glass and steel x-ram Camaro hoods...but the Chevelle?? This is the only time Ive heard of this?? Anyone???
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Re: L89 Nova???????
[ QUOTE ]
Enjoy your trip on the Howie magic bus. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif [/ QUOTE ] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwCdC...eature=related https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif ~ Pete |
Re: L89 Nova???????
[ QUOTE ]
So what about the glass hood option??? Anyone verify if that really existed?? Obviously Chevy made the glass and steel x-ram Camaro hoods...but the Chevelle?? This is the only time Ive heard of this?? Anyone??? [/ QUOTE ] Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that whole article was about 90% BS...hood story included. |
Re: L89 Nova???????
[/ QUOTE ] Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that whole article was about 90% BS...hood story included. [/ QUOTE ] Don't think you are off base in the slightest. When a buff mag does a piece on a car built a quarter century earlier that perpetuates myth it is irresponsible journalisim. It might not mean much to the 90% of people reading the article for the pure fictional aspect,but to the 10% of core enthusiasts(that are members here) the passion is in seeking truth. Obviously with no factory support it's been open season for forty years of grey,unfortuately the battle will never end. The "GM did strange things back then" all encompassing black hole that includes aluminum head cars,4spd LS5 monte carlos,nov built LS6 chevelles,etc has made it frustating love with these,and ripe for fraud. No (real)docs,no dice JMO https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif |
Re: L89 Nova???????
[ QUOTE ]
Don't think you are off base in the slightest. When a buff mag does a piece on a car built a quarter century earlier that perpetuates myth it is irresponsible journalisim. It might not mean much to the 90% of people reading the article for the pure fictional aspect,but to the 10% of core enthusiasts(that are members here) the passion is in seeking truth. Obviously with no factory support it's been open season for forty years of grey,unfortuately the battle will never end. The "GM did strange things back then" all encompassing black hole that includes aluminum head cars,4spd LS5 monte carlos,nov built LS6 chevelles,etc has made it frustating love with these,and ripe for fraud. No (real)docs,no dice JMO https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif [/ QUOTE ] What he said. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif |
Re: L89 Nova???????
And......How do you tell "Real" doc's anymore....These "Holy Grail" cars that fall out of the sky with some Documentation that nobody get's to look at(Not that I would know real paperwork anyway)...... In my unsophisticated point of view......tracking, verifying and documenting the prior ownership would be another piece of the Puzzle to establishing credibility for the 1 of 1 cars that "Just" show up one day.....Just my $.02
If I had one of the Holy Grail cars I would going overboard to "Prove" the authenticity and Pedigree of the Vehicle rather than just say "Believe Me"......It's easy to put a L-89 car together.......... Ken |
Re: L89 Nova???????
So this car in question is apparently atleast a real LS-6 conv...nothing to sneeze at...so where is it now?? Anyone know??? Is the build sheet available to see?? (Not that I would know a real build sheet from a fake one)Has anyone actually seen it to 100% verify that its bogus?? I assume no other glass hoods have showed up on build sheets or in person?? I remember many years ago a local fellow that knew I was really into early Camaros showed up with a fiberglass cowl hood stating that it was on his car since the 60's and it was a real GM hood...I noticed the oblong cutout underneath and all..but I was sure it was an aftermerket hood, so I did not give him the 200 bucks he wanted for it... dduuhhhh!! At the time, I dont think anyone believed that the glass x-ram hoods existed???
BTW...if these one-off "Holy Grail" cars did not show up now and then, we would all be pretty bored, wouldn't we !!! hehehe |
Re: L89 Nova???????
I think the Smithsonian Institute and others can identify paper and its age. Won't come cheap though but might buts a few myths. HEY!! We need the Mythbusters here. What's the story on 4 speed Monte Carlos. I saw a dark green '70-'72 402 4 speed around here many years ago. It looked original but who knows?
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Re: L89 Nova???????
SS 454 M/C were the ones w/o 4spd.
Boy..is this thread all over the place from it's intended title. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif |
Re: L89 Nova???????
[ QUOTE ]
I think the Smithsonian Institute and others can identify paper and its age. Won't come cheap though but might buts a few myths. HEY!! We need the Mythbusters here. What's the story on 4 speed Monte Carlos. I saw a dark green '70-'72 402 4 speed around here many years ago. It looked original but who knows? [/ QUOTE ] You could get a 4 speed box in a 70 or 71 Monte Carlo. Not in a 72. A friends Mom had a 70 350 cid 4 bbl W a 3.36 ?? I think, she was pissed at the saleman cause see wanted it w a 4.10 gear and could not get it. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif Mike |
Re: L89 Nova???????
This is from Team Chevelle.
Jan 31st, 07, 1:01 PM CNS Chuck Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Northern Illinois Posts: 2 Re: definative LS7 info -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have owned a 70 El Camino for 15 years. the engine # is T0218CRS. It does have Alum heads and a Turbo400 trans. The back of the block has the 3963512 casting number. It came from a highly regarded Scottsdale collector. I think I've got the real deal. What more can I do to be sure? (No build sheet.) http://www.chevelles.com/forums/show...;highlight=ls7 CRS 1970 Chevelle 454 450 TH LS-6 SHP, alum hd I dont know?Im not an expert |
Re: L89 Nova???????
That El Camino has been inspected and shown to have likely started life as an SS396 NOT a 454 and certainly not an LS-6. Unfortunately, another case of an innocent enthusiast being duped into buying what he thought was a legitimate car.
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Re: L89 Nova???????
My '71 SS454 El Camino has a white faced 6500 RPM redline tach. I have owned this car since the early 80's and know its history into the 70's. Obviously its not an LS6, but I think it lends credence that at some point an LS6 nearly made it into the 1971 line-up. It just seems crazy that they would put that tach into a hydraulic liftered engine. It would just be inviting warranty issues. Weird things happened.
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