Re: Collector Car Fraud!!!
 

First off, thanks for supporting me guys!

To address some of the concerns:

1. I will not have a problem obtaining experts, as stated by other members of this board; there are plenty of guys out there I can qualify in front of a judge as an expert.

2. Dealers can't hide. Sure they may be able to hide some assets, but corporations can be pierced and it is possible to go after the incorporators and any agents or employees. If a client has a civil cause of action against the seller he may also have a criminal cause of action against the seller which could possibly be turned over to the Attorney General for the state we are dealing with.

3. Jurisdiction - The firm I am working for, The Law Offices of Darrell C. Dethlefs, has contacts with attorneys in all 50 states and a networks is being set up to handle these cases no matter where they arise.

We will handle ANY vehicle fraud cases, Ferrari 250's, Mercedes 190SL, 300SL, Z/28, LS6, SS, L89, etc, anything. Even Ford and Mopar products. Fraudulent car appraisals, restoration misrepresentations, car is sold as "all numbers matching", but has a "CE" motor, etc. If a seller claims a car is something that it isn't, its fraud. If a seller or restoration shop is restamping engine blocks, putting them in cars and selling the cars as numbers matching all original, that’s fraud and misrepresentation.

Another thing to think about that we will be handling is inherent diminished value. This is when you purchase a high dollar car; take a Porsche for instance. You paid $100,000 brand new, right afer you purchase it, you have it appraised and it comes in at $95,000 (just because you drove it off the lot). You have it for a week, it has no miles on it and someone hits it. Insurance fixes the car and you get it re-appraised. Now the appraisal comes in at $85,000 just because it was hit. The car looks new, functions as new, but it has had major repairs. The difference between the $95,000 it was worth and the $85,000 it's now worth is an inherent value loss and I'm of the opinion that since your car is supposed to be returned to it's pre-accident condition, but now it's worth $10,000 less. I would like to try one or two of these cases because I believe the insurance company owes you a duty to get the car back to baseline ($95,000) and they should pay you for its inherent loss. If you were dealing with a Ford Focus, who would care, and the inherent loss would be too small to even worry about, but with a high-end car we are talking big dollars.

There is too much fraud in our hobby. Too many cowl tags trading hands on eBay, too many base Camaros being turned into Z28's and sold as original Z28's, etc. It's a wide spread problem and I'm trying to bring some legitimacy back to our hobby. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

Re: Collector Car Fraud!!!
 

How do you plan to handle the cases where they are "selling for a friend" and the info is "only what he/she told me" line, especially that you see on the dealers sites where many of these cars are on consignment? Seems as if the seller blames the dealer and the dealer blames the seller.

Point it case: I sold a LM1 at a auction on the MS gulf coast a few years back. The auctioneer stated MANY untruths about the car, things that I had never stated. Luckily, I was able to catch the winner and set him straight, and as the car was nice, he still wanted it and it worked out great. Could have been bad.

Finally, I know there is probably not much money in it, but what about action against sites like trimtags.com, that started out where you had to produce proof that you owned a car to get that trim tag to now where they will make anything you want no ? asked. That would help alot!

Re: Collector Car Fraud!!!
 

[ QUOTE ]
How do you plan to handle the cases where they are "selling for a friend" and the info is "only what he/she told me" line, especially that you see on the dealers sites where many of these cars are on consignment?

[/ QUOTE ]

The seller (owner of the car) is committing fraud by misrepresenting the car so the buyer has a case against the owner of the car. Now the case with consignments; if the consignment seller (person merely selling the car) knows the car is fake and still sells the car as legit, that's fraud and the buyer has a case against him as well.

Now the auction case is a little different, both guys are on the hook, both the auction company and the seller. The seller is on the hook unless he comes clean to the buyer (like you did 69LM1), but if the seller was to stay silient, that's fraud.

Re: Collector Car Fraud!!!
 

i guess personal injury is a little too competitive for you.

Re: Collector Car Fraud!!!
 

Bryan, congrat's on what you plan on undertaking but I think you should disclose a little more on this site as to what this can cost $$ the collector. We all know lawyers get their cake win or lose. You and I know first hand that the target of the lawsuit must have the funds or real property to make this lawsuit worth your victim's efforts, and to be fair about it your victim will look to recover their large legal fees as well. Maybe you should consider a pro-bono case or two just to get your name out there. On another note, victims should be aware that they can probably approach a State Attorney Generals office, they can not only go after the target with civil repriasals but criminal -- and they can go after someone out of state. Additonally, the State AG does not charge you $$$.

Re: Collector Car Fraud!!!
 

Off Topic: Bryan, I live pretty close to your office. I am in Hampden Twp, and I own a '65 Nova SS clone (and I never tell anyone it is a REAL SS! LOL)

Re: Collector Car Fraud!!!
 

Go get 'em tiger! I believe many lawsuits are initiated just to line pockets, but a few high profile collector car fraud cases may go a long way to slow some of the scoundrels down....
Dave

Re: Collector Car Fraud!!!
 

Legal action agaisnt fraudsters should include legal fees for recovering of any loss to the victum. However as far as making it worth while for our "lowly" muscle cars (as compared to the exotics), take for example a recent ZL1 clone that sold for approx. 100k, when a real one would fetch approx. 1 mill thats a 900k difference? To me thats worth going after the guy for, and why would he just go out of buisness he obviously still has his 900k profit somewhere and should be recovarable. With the price of muscle cars now reaching millions this is something that has to be started now before it gets out of hand.

Re: Collector Car Fraud!!!
 

I don't doubt you'll not have a problem finding experts. Getting them to testify in court is another matter entirely, as they'll probably not do it out of the kindness of their hearts. The Jerry Macneish comment-- I'm sure he'll fly all over the country to appear in court to testify. Uh huh...

The real issue, and what I was referring to by the "expert" comment, is the inability to actually prosecute private sellers for fraud because proving that they should have known of the fraud prior to sale would be impossible. Long story short, unless you can prove that the seller is an expert, you cannot prosecute them for fraud. Here's why, via an example: I'm a normal guy that sold a fradulently misrepresented vehicle, and yeah, I knowingly switched body tags, rebodied a VIN, kissed your wife and winked at your daughter in the process, what have you. However, my defense is that I bought it this way; "I don't know nothin'", and I didn't know that it was misrepresented, because hey, I'm not an expert-- I'm just a guy that sells a few cars a year, maybe makes a few bucks... How am I supposed to know, I'm just a novice car owner-- I also collect hats and like my riding lawnmowers, by the way. I don't buy and sell vehicles for a living. Just like in this example, the court cannot hold a private individual in the same regard that someone that does buy/sell for a living (i.e.: Dealer), and the transaction once again is simply buyer beware.

Dealers have their own ways of dealing with trouble, and depending on their available resources, they could reimburse, can appeal, blow it off, etc... Courts expect reasonable people to work it out between themselves first, and court is the last resort. Couple this with logistics such as court dates in advance, courts are already clogged, determining jurisdication, etc. A case of fraud, even if it's seemingly iron-clad, will probably never reach the stage of prosecution anyway. It would be settled
via mediation, leaving the guilty party free to do the same thing again (because there's too much money in it for them not to). And, even if a court orders someone to pay up, it doesn't guarantee that the guilty party will act-- Look at the O.J. case...

You've also probably noticed that e-bay and other outlets of sale have taken puffery to the next level. This will also be a very convenient defense in the case of a misrepresented vehicle-- Take a look at some of the ads on e-bay, and you'll most likely notice that sellers, and
specifically dealers, are very careful as to what they state regarding selling.

That ZL1 comment-- I don't even know where that's coming from... There are 69 cars, and they are all known, so very little chance of fraud there. That's why people clone Z's and Chevelles-- It's easy to do with success.

I just googled collector car fraud, car fraud, etc...-- The type of fraud that Brian is referring to, and noting came up as a lawsuit. What does that tell you? It tells me that it's not successfully prosecuted.

By the way, what's a "victum"?

Re: Collector Car Fraud!!!
 

"victum" is what you tell your wife to do when the tenant in the basement is too far behind on the rent.