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Re: More Chevelle updates
Nope, the 489 project has been on the shelf since right after the dyno testing was completed, that's when my fathers health went downhill. As the `Burb is my DD I wasn't comfortable pulling it out of service long enough to do the engine swap out of concern for potential tuning/computer issues.
W/O going into too much detail, the guy I bought all my TBI stuff from for the 489 install (oversized TBI, adjustable fuel pressure regulator, in-tank HV pump and custom burned PROM) suddenly developed a very <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">bad</span></span> reputation <span style="font-style: italic">right after</span> I'd bought everything from him (Shades of my experience with Desert Valley [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif[/img]). As such, I've held off on the swap until such time as I would be able to spare the truck for a few weeks if necessary for de-bugging. I do have another TBI chip guy in mind should this one not run right, so at least there's that option. *Stuff* like this is precisely why I love good old-fashioned carburetors and conventional distributors. Unfortunately, converting the truck from TBI to carbureted is a fairly involved job, so practicality is forcing me to at least attempt to make the TBI system work. We shall see. |
Re: More Chevelle updates
Installation of an MSD #8739 2 step box:
The reason for the 2 step install was simple: the car is extremely quiet which makes hearing the engine RPM on the starting line basically impossible, esp. when the car in the other lane is running open headers. As such, consistently controlling launch rpm is damned near impossible. In an attempt to be able to launch the car consistently--and at a somewhat low rpm in an effort to reduce parts breakage, I decided to install and MSD #8739 2 step box to go along with my 6AL box. The car was already equipped with a basic MSD 6AL unit which was mounted on the inner fender next to the battery both for convenience's sake and to help keep it somewhat less visible. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-46444-005.jpg With the battery removed to make some room to work, the 2 step box was mounted next to the 6AL and the main power feed wire was ran straight to the battery junction post on the core support. Under normal operation, the 2 step uses the 2nd "module" which is the high rpm limit. When the 2 step is activated, it bypasses module 2 and energizes module 1, which is the low side. I chose to wire the 2 step by running power direct to the box and using a switch on the shifter handle to complete the ground circuit to activate the 2 step. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-46445-007.jpg With everything back in place, the ground wire to the 2 step was routed through the engine bay above the passenger side inner fender, along the firewall and down the passenger side floorboard. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-46446-008.jpg https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-46447-006.jpg To activate the 2 step for the time being, I chose the classic Hurst t-handle which has a momentary contact switch built in. The wiring was ran down along the shifter handle and through the shifter grommet and under the car. One side of the wiring was grounded to the transmission crossmember and the other was attached to the ground wire to the 2 step box. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-46448-003.jpg Note: I may change the wiring depending on how well it works as-is: MSD does show an alternate wiring schematic which uses a common 5 pole relay along with a clutch pedal mounted activation switch for the 2 step. The momentary contact button on the shifter handle activates the system while the clutch switch is energized, but the shifter button does not need to be held down as it does now. Once the system is activated and the clutch switch is tripped it de-activates the 2 step and reverts back to the high side chip. Video of the 2 step-click the pic: http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d7...psvrdxesyo.JPG Hoping to get back to the track very soon. Will the 3rd time be a charm? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif[/img] |
Re: More Chevelle updates
Gonn'a try this again.
https://www.facebook.com/events/346419402361882/ https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...49423-gotg.jpg https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...422-092416.jpg Gates open @ 10:00, track opens at 11:00. |
Re: More Chevelle updates
Good luck!!
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Re: More Chevelle updates
Give er' hell Eric and good luck!! TAZ [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/burnout.gif[/img]
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Re: More Chevelle updates
Woohoo!!!
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Re: More Chevelle updates
Welp...2 steps forward, one step back. Again.
I've been waiting to mention that I've apparently found a little more power in the car recently. I was hoping today's trip to the track would substantiate that suspicion. It did....sort'a...in a way. The car's driving through the clutch again pretty badly--which means it definitely picked up power, but (as seems to be the norm for this damned thing) I can't fully quantify it on the timeslips...HOWEVER I CAN say this much...how many 4000+ lb cars do you know of that can pick up <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">TWENTY SIX</span></span> MPH on the back half with a slipping clutch??? (1st pass--picked up 23+ on the back half on the 2nd run--with the clutch still slipping like hell) Check out the slips below (left lane # 105 on both runs): https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...ips_092516.jpg Both passes were with stone cold tires--was paranoid about breaking the 12 bolt again so I didn't want the car to dead-hook. As it turns out, the clutch slipped badly enough that the car did dead-hook, but the 60' times were dismal. (For comparisons sake, the first time to the track last year it ran a 1.76' 60' time on a very soft launch and ran a 7.74 @ 90.2 mph) I launched the car both times at 2500 rpm and it never even lifted the front end either time. I launched, rolled out a few feet and matted it, caught the shift light and grabbed the gears and the car rode the clutch until the top of 3rd when all of a sudden it grabbed and the front end hiked up. Both times when I grabbed 4th the front end came down but just at the top of the gear the clutch grabbed and the front end hiked up again. I'll get pics & video uploaded later, but there's really not much to see--just one rather embarrassing 13 second pass and a 12.25 pass. So, it's smoked another clutch. At least it didn't $hit parts out on the track. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif[/img] Time for clutch #3...or a 400 Turbo (I'm rrrrrreeeeeeaaaaaaaaaalllllllllllllyyyyyyy getting tired of dicking with this damned manual trans setup). More later. |
Re: More Chevelle updates
Eric, Just my two cents, on your issue. Ninty percent of the cars that run a the strip . Are automatics. Eazyer on the drivetrain and more consistent times. I spend alot a time alot at alot of tracks and I see what guys are using. I run a turbo 400 with a automatic valve body. With a higher shift point, then stock. All I do is put the car in third gear, and put the pedal to the floor. Look what all the new COPO camaros come with from the factory? BBBenny
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Re: More Chevelle updates
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bbbenny</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Eric, Just my two cents, on your issue. Ninty percent of the cars that run a the strip . Are automatics. Eazyer on the drivetrain and more consistent times. I spend alot a time alot at alot of tracks and I see what guys are using. I run a turbo 400 with a automatic valve body. With a higher shift point, then stock. All I do is put the car in third gear, and put the pedal to the floor. Look what all the new COPO camaros come with from the factory? BBBenny</div></div>
Absolutely agree -- I've run turbo 350 and 400s ... and as indicated, much easier on the drivetrain. Or you could run a beefed glide -- two speeds ... fast and faster. TAZ |
Re: More Chevelle updates
Now that I've had a chance to sleep on this, I've decided I'm going to go ahead and put another clutch in it. If it takes another $hit, the car's getting an automatic for the time being until I put a "mild" engine in it just to drive...or I'm going to sell the car and build something that doesn't weigh two friggin' tons plus.
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Re: More Chevelle updates
Nah -- you've put too much time in this ride ... keep it and get the driveline in it that will survive. There are clutches available to handle your "two-tonner" ... TAZ
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Re: More Chevelle updates
Manufacturer should step up and make good on the clutch
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Re: More Chevelle updates
Except it likely is rated for less hp than Eric is currently making. Doesn't appear to be have a manufacturing flaw.
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What happened to the clutch? Overpowered it?
That is brutal:-( Ryan |
Re: More Chevelle updates
You have way too much horsepower. Give some of your extra to the rest of us. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif[/img]
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Re: More Chevelle updates
Haven't read through the whole thread so maybe someone has already suggested this, but you may want to look into a custom deal given the horsepressure you're making. I had a custom setup from ProMotion Powertrain in an 84 Mustang about 10 years ago that I couldn't keep an OTS clutch in, worked great.
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Re: More Chevelle updates
Jeff;
I spoke to Ram last week. When I explained the situation, the guy was like "Yeah, with your power & weight, you're past the limits of that clutch." Would've been nice if the tech that I spoke to the last time I went through this would've told me that instead of recommending this Powergrip HD. Paul; This clutch is "rated" at 650 HP--I'm just over 600 at the moment. Obviously you can't just go by HP rating, vehicle weight has to be taken into consideration as well...as my situation clearly demonstrates. Ryan; Yup. Big-time. Steve; No such thing as too much HP, just not enough aft of said HP at the moment. (FWIW, building HP is the relatively easy/affordable part--it's everything you have to put <span style="font-style: italic">behind</span> all that HP that bleeds you out of $$$) Tony; I'll be making some calls tomorrow. I was hoping to get the car back together to try to get back to the track this Thursday, but that's looking pretty iffy at the moment...and we're rapidly closing in on the end of the season. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/frown.gif[/img] |
Re: More Chevelle updates
Eric, I applaud your commitment to the manual transmission. I can't imagine my 65 Chevelle any other way.
A good friend of mine, Andy Starr just completed Drag Week with his 56 Chevy, running G Force trans. He uses a Dragon Claw Clutch and an adjustable clutch yammer but frequently kills ring gears in his Dana 60. Stepping up to a set-up like that is expensive and likely will result in a longer trip down a road of breaking more parts and engineering the weak link(s) out of the who car. Selfishly, I would just like to see a bunch of success, fun & enjoyment for you- in the way of low E.T.s, exceeding your own expextations and minimum carnage on parts. The TH400 offers a quick and direct path to that kind of fun. Might be a harder choice to make than it appears, which I can relate to. Between the time already into the 4 speed and a bit of ego on figuring out how to get the manual to meet your goals- it isn't such an easy choice to make. This is a bit long, but I thought about your dilemma several times while reading Andy's blog. http://hilborninjection.com/drag-week-2016/ |
Re: More Chevelle updates
Here's some interesting math for those who care to know;
You can calculate your (near) optimal elapsed time by dividing 1320 (length in feet of a 1/4 mile) by the observed trap MPH. For example-- 1320/105 mph should result in an optimal e.t. of 12.57. 1320/110 mph should result in an optimal e.t. of 12.00. 1320/115 mph should result in an optimal e.t. of 11.47. Note that my last pass ran 115+ mph, but the e.t. was only 12.25, which is .78 off the pace--and that's with severe clutch slip through most of the run. The car has the potential to trap at least 118-120+ MPH without the clutch slipping. Using the Wallace racing calculator with the following (estimated--do not have actual data on hand for the day) weather parameters: ET (1/4): <span style="font-weight: bold">11.47</span> (which is the theoretical optimal e.t for my trap mph) MPH (1/4): <span style="font-weight: bold">115</span> Weight : (in pounds) <span style="font-weight: bold">4050</span> (had the gas tank almost full this time) Elevation : (in feet) <span style="font-weight: bold">1000'</span> Temperature (F): (in Degrees) <span style="font-weight: bold">75°</span> Relative Humidity (%): <span style="font-weight: bold">80%</span> Actual Barometer (in/Hg): <span style="font-weight: bold">29.8</span> We get the following data: Your HP is 523.06 from your ET Your HP is 523.78 from your MPH Your HP Correction Factor is 1.09 Your Grains of water is 108.29 Your DA (Density Altitude) is 1,474 feet Your DA (Density Altitude) is 449 meters As you can see that's about 90 HP shy of what the engine actually made on the dyno, but two things have to be taken into consideration: 1) That was not an optimal pass--more on that in a moment. 2) The Wallace calculator shows observed HP while the dyno figures show corrected figures based on SAE weather standards. SO--let's *assume* (I hate that word) that the car can trap 118 MPH on an optimal pass. Re-calculating the figures using an 11.18 e.t. @ 118 mph (1320/118 = 11.18), we come up with the following; Your HP is 554.55 from your ET Your HP is 565.85 from your MPH Your HP Correction Factor is 1.09 Your Grains of water is 108.29 Your DA (Density Altitude) is 1,474 feet Your DA (Density Altitude) is 449 meters These figures are much closer to the actual <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">observed</span></span> power figures on the dyno. Making the HP is relatively easy. Putting it all to optimal use is the *%*@$@^# hard--AND expensive part...esp. when you're trying to do it with a stick in a two ton plus tank. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smirk.gif[/img] FWIW, if it wasn't for the fact that I would have to buy ANOTHER high-$$ driveshaft to make it work, I'd have a 400 Turbo in the car this week (I have a good core stashed under my workbench). |
Re: More Chevelle updates
I went through this on a BB Nova. Tried several diaphram plates and discs. Then I went to talk to Paul Mercure of Team Checkmate .
He told me to use a Borg & Beck three finger style pressure plate. I bought the setup from Ram and my problems were over. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...ecamarodg7.jpg |
Re: More Chevelle updates
Do you have the details re: the pressure plate & disc that you used?
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Re: More Chevelle updates
Eric,
I have this in my Nova http://www.mcleodracing.com/index.ph...twin-disc.html Admittedly, my car is lighter than yours. I'm really happy with the drivability and it holds the 600hp well my car makes on MT drag radials. Tim |
Re: More Chevelle updates
I was specifically advised against the RST because it's not intended for use with sticky tires. The RXT was recommended instead.
http://www.mcleodracing.com/index.ph...pns-41077.html I'm going to inquire about a Soft-lok clutch tomorrow. With the drag radials, my power and weight, there has to be a "weak link" in the system somewhere or it's going to break parts. Since you can't "slip" a drag radial tire like you can a bias slick to absorb some of the initial hit, it has to be absorbed by the clutch. In my case, it <span style="font-style: italic">has to</span> slip a little bit on the initial hit, but lock up once the vehicle is in motion. Here's a good read on the Soft-Lok over on the Chevelle site: Click here |
Re: More Chevelle updates
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VintageMusclecar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Do you have the details re: the pressure plate & disc that you used? </div></div>
Sorry no. This was in 2001 and that car is gone. I can't find the receipts. Another thing he recommended was to have more gear. I had slicks with 4.10 gear. I was running a Muncie M20. I wanted to keep the 4.10's so I bought a Richmond T-10 with 2.88 first gear when I put the new Ram clutch in. |
Re: More Chevelle updates
I'm using the street slayer from http://americanpowertrain.com/ stands up to my 630 hp BBC and T 56
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Re: More Chevelle updates
I dropped off the clutch at Dayton Clutch & Joint this morning. It appears the pressure plate can be rebuilt & re-surfaced and the flywheel can also be re-surfaced.
After MUCH detective work and a number of phone calls (including to Ram), I ordered another clutch disc--a RAM # 6130--to try with my existing pressure plate & flywheel. This one is a solid step up from the last disc, but it's a dedicated race clutch. It does have a sprung hub to help (at least a little bit) with street manners. Other than that, it's a balls-to-the-wall full boogie race unit. https://static.summitracing.com/glob...am-6121_ml.jpg I *may* have everything back tomorrow, and it shouldn't take too long to get everything back together in the car. God knows I've got enough practice at it. |
Re: More Chevelle updates
Friday Wx is looking good.....
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Re: More Chevelle updates
The new clutch is in. I still have to re-mount the shifter and reinstall the shifter bezel, but I'll do that tomorrow. I also have to replace the power steering belt that flipped itself over @ the track, but that's a non-issue.
I did verify with Ram that the new clutch does <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">not</span></span> technically require any break-in period, but he did say giving it a little time to seat in wouldn't be a bad idea. Road report possibly tomorrow. *edit* I had some help tonight--Eric & Martin (Orange GTO and black `66 Chevelle, respectively) stopped by to help get the car buttoned back up. Eric took a pic & posted it to Facebook. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...4-49925-em.jpg |
Re: More Chevelle updates
Sounds promising ersatz clutch guy! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/headbang.gif[/img]
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Re: More Chevelle updates
Classic hotrod photo....mid 60's Big Block Chevelle on jack stands...pair of legs sticking out from under the car...various tools scattered about...PERFECT!
Good luck with the new clutch [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img] |
Re: More Chevelle updates
[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/laugh.gif[/img] Keep us posted!
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Re: More Chevelle updates
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VintageMusclecar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Making the HP is relatively easy. Putting it all to optimal use is the *%*@$@^# hard--AND expensive part...esp. when you're trying to do it with a stick in a two ton plus tank. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smirk.gif[/img] </div></div> I can sympathize. My Chevy II has run a best of 12.98 @ 108 mph. With a 108 mph trap speed, ET should be a lot better. I just haven't figured out how to lauch it with the Muncie and get the 60' down. |
Re: More Chevelle updates
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: WILMASBOYL78</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Classic hotrod photo....mid 60's Big Block Chevelle on jack stands...pair of legs sticking out from under the car...various tools scattered about...PERFECT!
Good luck with the new clutch [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img] </div></div> AND no creeper -- just a piece of cardboard ... |
Re: More Chevelle updates
That was Marty on the cardboard--he's a little dude and can get away with that--I was on the creeper under the other side of the car. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img]
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Re: More Chevelle updates
The first test drive is in the bag.
Status report: This clutch is one grabby sumbitch. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/eek.gif[/img] --no "in between" with this one, it's on or off like a light switch. When I first pulled it out of the garage, i thought it was going to shake the entire dashboard out of the car. I drove it over to Marty's house here in town, then he asked if he could drive it, so I let him take it around the plats. It's going to take a little getting used to, and I definitely have to alter my driving style with this clutch, but I think we can make this work--at least for now. I want to put a few more miles on it before I put it to the test. More later. |
Re: More Chevelle updates
The never ending "Refining" process............ [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
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Re: More Chevelle updates
Yep--constantly addressing the newest weak links in the chain.
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Re: More Chevelle updates
Eric,
Are you going to the track tonight? I'm heading up after work. |
Re: More Chevelle updates
I'm planning on going--Doug Perry's taking his green monster out and called me this morning to see if I could meet him there. I won't be taking the Chevelle today--no break-in/de-bug time on the clutch yet and the Suburban's in the shop with rear brake issues (again--long story there).
You taking your car out? |
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