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Re: More Chevelle updates
(Sorry for the ultra-crappy pics! My shop is little more than a Dungeon, so lighting for decent pics is SORELY lacking! frown ) Aaaah ... but what beasts come from the dungeons -- and I thought I was the only one with same. TAZ [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/headbang.gif[/img]
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Re: More Chevelle updates
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnddddddd..........
......................................... ......................................... ......................................... ......................................... ......................................... Drumroll................................. ......................................... ......................................... After three (count `em...<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">THREE</span></span></span>) trips to the parts store(s) to find a belt that fits...we have power steering. FWIW, with the 3 groove crank pulley and the 3873847 PS pulley, a .410" wide (10 mm) by 51" belt should be just about right. I have a 51.5" belt and it's just a skosh looser than I'd care for with the adjustment maxed out. Gott'a wait `till the system de-foams a bit before I can test drive it, but I was able to turn the wheel back & forth with 1 finger. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] SO FAR---no runs, no drips, no errors...save for the slight mess I made spilling PS fluid while trying to fill the reservoir with the engine running (the car does shake a little after all...) Fingers crossed...more shortly..I hope! |
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Test drives are complete. I had to re-clock the steering wheel, but that aside, the car is <span style="font-weight: bold">MUCH</span> nicer to drive now, and tight spot maneuverability is <span style="font-style: italic">vastly</span> improved! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]
Also, a couple of weeks ago I made a few minor adjustments to the idle circuits on the carb. This seems to have cleared up the part-throttle hiccups the car was experiencing between 1500-2000 rpm. Now if I can just remember not to try to lug this thing down below 1500 rpm while cruising through town. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smirk.gif[/img] Assuming there aren't any unforeseen snafu's tomorrow, Kil Kare appears to be a go. |
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SO!!!...
What happens when you mix 4,000+ lbs of `60's musclecar with 600+ lb.ft of torque, a 5 speed manual trans, a 3500 rpm launch with sticky tires and a 12 bolt rear end?... Took the Chevelle back to Kil Kare today for another shot at redemption. Pfft...yeah, right. I'm now 0 for 2. Got there at 5:30, zoomed through tech, hot-footed it over to the staging lanes, and promptly sat until after 7:00 before I got to make--er--TRY to make my first pass. SUPER-light burnout...rolled up to the lights, brought the tach up to 3500, aaaaaaaaaaannnnddddd....... The 12 bolt gave up the ghost right there in front of God & everybody--the thing barely even lurched off the line. Video below (please excuse the potty mouth), post-mortem pics of the 12 bolt once I get the car off the trailer and on stands in the garage. Oh, on the plus side, the Suburban did a GREAT job of towing today, but I REALLY need to figure out a way to upgrade the WOEFULLY inadequate OEM brakes. http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d7...psqviematb.JPG |
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Dude. It only gets better from there....
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What year was your Suburban again? Mine is a 1995 K2500 and there is a TSB 99-05-24-001 out for the metering block attached to the ABS that was making the truck use 90% of its front circuit for braking and essentially ignoring the complete rear circuit. That was why my Suburban at 120,000 miles has all of its rear brake shoes intact. They hadn't touched the inside of the rear drums in two decades. Once we replaced that metering block, things worked a lot better. Here is the TSB article:
Covers 1992 to 1999 Chevrolet & GMC C/K Cab Chassis, CrewCab, Pickup and Suburban as well as 1996 to 1999 G Series Vans (TSB 99-05-24-001, June 1999) http://www.dieselplace.com/forum/63-gm-d...5-24-001-a.html http://www.amazon.com/ACDelco-125482.../dp/B000S2RYZE (1995 and newer valve) |
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9" next?
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Damn Eric. Between your luck and mine there is no luck! LOL
But did it steer nice and easy..........? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/wink.gif[/img] |
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Been there done that...many many times. Time to rebuild.
BIG |
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: earntaz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">9" next? </div></div>
Eric mentioned he is contemplating a Dana rear. Always like the look of a Dana peeking out from underneath a Chebby! |
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THANK YOU STEVE!!! I've been looking for that exact info and haven't been able to find it! Mine's a `95 2500 series gas, and that's exactly what mine's done--wears out the front brakes and barely uses the rears.
Since I'm not registered on that forum, I can't get the .pdf to open. Is that forum a quick register site or do I have to wait for admin approval? Is there any way you could send me the .pdf file? As far as getting the Chevelle back on the road, I have another 12 bolt ready to go under the car. It's a Nov. `66 dated unit (the car is a December `66 build) I bought from our own Scuncio a couple of years ago and had built with a rebuilt posi, a 3.73 gear (the car currently has a 4.56 which I originally installed with the intent to test back-to-back against a 3.73), a Mark Williams billet drivers side carrier cap and Strange street/strip axles (with c clips). Obviously I'm not going to cut the `66 rear for c clip eliminators, but the current 12 bolt is a garden variety `68 unit, so repairing it and upgrading to c clip eliminators is an option. I need to crunch the numbers and see what it'll take to "bullet proof" the `68 rear end--billet cap, c clip eliminators, top shelf differential and race axles vs. going to a Strange bolt-in S60 Dana rear end. I really don't want to go with a 9" Ford, but if worse comes to worst it will be a consideration. At least I can get the car back on the road quickly for now, will just have to forego trying any super-hard launches. |
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BTW, I owe a MEGA-HUGE thanks to Sam Griffith and to Doug Perry!
Sam came out to spectate and Doug was running the Green Monster. Both came to my aid to push the car back around to the access road, and Sam even went so far as to retrieve my Suburban and trailer for me--even had to back it down the access road several hundred feet, which was MUCH appreciated since yesterday was my first time ever towing a trailer, and my back-up skills are still in need of refinement. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/frown.gif[/img] Doug rounded up a few big dudes from the staging lanes to come over and help push the Chevelle back up on the trailer (no winch and no come-along--won't make that mistake again!) So again, THANK YOU to Sam Griffith and Doug Perry (and the random mystery dudes from the lanes)! |
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Well it was perfect Wx for test and tune. Now if only the car cooperated. It was nice to see you and Rachel and Doug. I'll post some photos later.
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VintageMusclecar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">THANK YOU STEVE!!! I've been looking for that exact info and haven't been able to find it! Mine's a `95 2500 series gas, and that's exactly what mine's done--wears out the front brakes and barely uses the rears.
Since I'm not registered on that forum, I can't get the .pdf to open. Is that forum a quick register site or do I have to wait for admin approval? Is there any way you could send me the .pdf file? </div></div> It's a great website. You can register pretty quick there without grief. I am NJsteve there, too. If we could figure out a way to post PDF's it would be much easier here... I printed it, scanned it and now am posting it for your reading pleasure. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img] The article was from 2001 so GM knew about this when the trucks were still new and under warranty. You can probably ignore the brake shoe set part # portion of the update as any modern set of rear shoes cross reference to that part number now (15 years later). This TSB was the subject of numerous lawsuits against GM, who refused to acknowledge that a defect existed and only repaired the problem if the customer complained of the "truck pulling to one side under heavy braking." If those magic words weren't used, the dealers refused to replace the metering valve under the TSB. NHTSA tried to get them to admit to the problem and issue a voluntary recall (much like the rusty brake line issue) but GM fought them all the way. And the Bankruptcy and reorg meant that they never had to do anything about he problem after the bailout in 2009. When I did the metering valve replacement I also replaced all the rear brake parts via rockauto.com. Got a great price on the 50-lb. brake drums and all the assorted hardware. Probably didn't need to replace the drums since they were never used in all those years but I had already ordered them and it would have cost me way too much to ship them back. Those drums can be a @%#%$ to remove - they tend to freeze to the axle hub. When we got my drums off we noticed that the shoes had never fully applied in almost 20 years. They were glazed with age and still at full thickness. I replaced the wheel cylinders, springs and shoes just in case they were frozen up from sitting so long. BTW, the wheel cylinder bolts and bleeder screws are real fun to get to with the heavy duty leaf springs so close to the backing plates. BTW you could just swap that 10" rear with the full floating axles and 13"x3-1/2" brakes from the Suburban into your Chevelle and it should take the torque quite nicely. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-brake_tsb.jpg |
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mockingbird812</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: earntaz</div><div class="ubbcode-body">9" next? </div></div>
Eric mentioned he is contemplating a Dana rear. Always like the look of a Dana peeking out from underneath a Chebby!</div></div> Yep -- that will work just as well ... TAZ |
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[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/worship.gif[/img]
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Well, there's good news and "I'm not too sure" news:
Popped the cover off and no chunks fell out...matter of fact, I couldn't see anything wrong with the carrier or the gearset at all. Here's what I did find...the "good news" Drivers side axle: https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-43850-005.jpg The passenger side axle appears to be undamaged, I don't even see any twist to the splines. I couldn't get the remnant of the drivers side axle to slide in far enough to dis-engage the c-clip groove, so I had to pull the whole carrier out. Thank <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">GOD</span></span> the carrier pin retainer bolt didn't break! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/eek.gif[/img] Here's what was left of the drivers side axle: https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-43851-007.jpg https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-43852-009.jpg Again, the ring & pinion appear to be undamaged: https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-43853-010.jpg Here's the "I'm not so sure" news-- While turning the diff to get the U joint strap bolts out, rotation felt very "clunky". As soon as the driveshaft was disengaged from the rear end, the ring & pinion rotated freely. I've had enough for today so I'm not going to check it right now, but if that new transmission is hurt, the car's going to a 400 Turbo. More sometime over the weekend. |
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Eric,
Sorry for the bad news. Glad to hear about the good news. I can't imagine the transmission and the rear going at the same time but I guess i the car was really biting it is possible. You are an awesome guy but I don't see us going to Vegas together. Jason |
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The glass is clearly half-full. Glad to see it was an axle. A reasonable fix, and I'm optimistic for you and the trans. Thanks for sharing and quickly posting the carnage pics.
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VintageMusclecar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, there's good news and "I'm not too sure" news:
Popped the cover off and no chunks fell out...matter of fact, I couldn't see anything wrong with the carrier or the gearset at all. Here's what I did find...the "good news" Drivers side axle: https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-43851-007.jpg https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-43852-009.jpg </div></div> Crazy question but what is the brown stuff on the inside of the broken surfaces? Is that rust? If so that would indicate a preexisting fracture that was old enough to rust. Or was it the residue from you pounding it out of the carrier with something? |
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That's rust from the end of an old steel barbell I was using as a drift to try to knock the broken stub in far enough to remove the c clip.
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Well, after spending the better part of the day yesterday researching 12 bolt components, I've decided that for the time being I'm going to install a new pair of Strange axles along with their c clip eliminator kits. The Yukon axles that were in the car are a quality product, but the car obviously took them past their limits. Unless I want to go to a 33 spline Eaton posi (MORE $$$) or a 35 spline spool (not happening on any street car of mine), the Strange axles are my best investment. As much as I'd love to keep a 12 bolt under the car, at this weight and power level with a stick trans, it just doesn't make sense to pour money into a 12 bolt when there is a far better alternative.
The plan is to get it back together and get it to the track again, but for the time being it'll be easy launches--nothing above 3K. I still want/need to establish a representative baseline with the 4.56 gears before I make any other changes. Once that has been accomplished, the (reasonably) near-future goal is to get a Strange S60 rear under the car. That will be able to take anything I want to throw at it--and more. Ordering the Strange parts tomorrow, hopefully I'll have everything buttoned back up soon. More eventually. |
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Where's the old thread on the Suburban build? You need to update that when you do the brakes. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]
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Already in the works! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]
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Just received email confirmation that my new axles will be here tomorrow.
Not bad--order custom axles on Monday, they ship out 2 days later. Kudos Strange. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] |
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I put a Strange S60 in my '55. Loved the look of that chrome Dana cover under there.
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I had the same problem with a axle . This was in 1979 and I tow bared the car to the track.
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...opy800x542.jpg |
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Been slugging away at this job as I've had the time--naturally it's a <span style="font-style: italic">leeeeetle</span> bit more involved than the instructions on their website indicate. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/smirk.gif[/img]
On the plus side, these axles are sum BEEFY sumbitches. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img] Pics & a detailed installation story forthcoming--but now I have babyback ribs to attend to, so the Chevelle will haf'ta wait `till tomorrow. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] |
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Below is a side-by-side comparison of the Strange axle next to the Yukon replacement axle:
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-44057-001.jpg https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-44058-002.jpg https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-44059-003.jpg As you can see, the difference is huge, save for the very end where the splines are. It is possible to machine an OEM posi case for larger 33 spline axles and swap the spider gears out for the larger shafts, but again, I'm not going to put any more $ into this 12 bolt than I have to for now since it's not going to be under the car for much longer. After the axle seal has been removed, the OE axle bearings have to be removed. Typically a slide hammer is used to remove these, but since I don't have one and wasn't going to buy one just for this job, I made do with a home-made puller using a long piece of allthread, a few nuts and some large washers. Worked like a charm. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-44060-004.jpg Once the bearing is out, the end of the axle tube is trimmed off. In this instance, Strange calls for no more than .0625" (1/16") total height from the flange to the register for the backing plate. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-44061-005.jpg Here's where it got a bit complicated; Since these axles use such a huge outer bearing, you have to machine the inside diameter of the end of the axle tube out to 2.125" to ensure clearance for the "wedding ring", which is the small pressed-on sleeve that helps retain the axle bearing. The area to be removed is highlighted in black in the pic below: https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-44063-009.jpg Problem is, how in the hell do you machine it? [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/hmmm.gif[/img] I spent over an hour trying to use a stone grinder on the passenger side tube, and only managed to get it out to just over 2.100. By that time my hands were stinging from the vibration of the grinder, so I threw in the towel on that approach and came up with a better plan. I went to my tool box, rummaged through the drill accessory drawer, and sure as God made little green apples, it just so happened that I had a 2 1/8" hole saw! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] As luck would have it, it <span style="font-style: italic">just</span> centered into the remaining register on the axle tube, so I fired up my trusty cordless drill, aaaaaaaannnnnd proceeded to get absofriggenlutely nowhere. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif[/img] Turns out if I was gonn'a use this hole saw to do the job, I was gonn'a need something with substantially more "oomph" than my 18v cordless drill. Luckily, I had that base covered too. Meet "the arm breaker" [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/grin.gif[/img] : This was handed down to me courtesy of my great grandfather. This thing has saved my butt on numerous occasions, but as the name implies, it ain't to be trifled with. I learned early on to be <span style="font-style: italic">very</span> cautious using this thing, `cause if it grabs something, it's likely gonn'a break the drill apparatus you're using, or you're gonn'a pirouette like an ice skater whether you want to or not. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-44062-007.jpg I loaded up the hole saw in the arm breaker, and <span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">cautiously</span></span> I started to grind away at the tubes. Took less than 5 minutes for each tube. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-44065-006.jpg It ain't pretty, but it clears! So now everything's machined and ready to be put back together. I have to clean the axle tubes out, but that's all that's left to do. Below is the installation diagram should anyone be interested: https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-44064-008.jpg With any luck I'll have everything buttoned back up tomorrow. Oh....FWIW...I happened to check the weather forecast for next Thursday--81° and a 50% chance of rain. Naturally. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/thumbsdown.gif[/img] |
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[img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img]
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Two steps forward, one HUGE step backwards. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/mad.gif[/img]
I got everything all buttoned back up today--carrier back in, axles & brake backing plates reinstalled. All that was left to do was reinstall the drums & wheels/tires and add fluid. Since these axles have 1/2" studs, I had to drill out the holes on the drums for clearance. No problem, get them drilled out, go to slide them on aaaannnnnddddd.... They stop dead at the hub register. A quick & rough check with my calipers reveals the hub on the axle is a little over 2.830", and the hub bore in the drum is only ~2.800. It appears I'll either have to send the axles back to be machined, or I'll have to find someone who can <span style="text-decoration: underline">accurately</span> bore out the register since these brakes are hub-centric. The bloom is <span style="font-weight: bold">definitely</span> off the rose at this point. |
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Bummer.....time for a Cold One [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img]
Dan |
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Been doing more research on this hub sizing problem, haven't been able to make heads or tails of why they (aftermarket) would change something so standardized as the register hub.
I have a pair of basic street/strip c-clip style Strange axles ready to go into the `67 dated 12 bolt, and the registers on them fit the drums just fine. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-44092-003.jpg Here's the same drum on the HD axle: https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-44093-001.jpg Luckily, the wheel register clears with room to spare, and I didn't even have to drill out the axle stud holes, there's already ample room for the 1/2' studs (note the wheel is slipped directly over the axle flange, the drum is not in place here): https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/pics...-44094-002.jpg We'll see what Strange has to say tomorrow. |
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I *think * I've found the issue.
When I measured the hub on the HD axle, it appears I had the calipers slightly on the radius at the back of the register which showed the large reading. I re-measured this morning making sure to only measure the outer part of the register, and it does measure the same as the c-clip style axle for the `67 rear end. (It's not easy to get an accurate measurement with the wheel studs in place) It appears I may just need to go one size larger on the wheel stud holes to allow a little wiggle room for the drum to index on the register. I'm off to the hardware store shortly to pick up a 17/32" drill bit. Please...let it be this easy. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/crazy.gif[/img] |
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Sometimes ya' just have to get lucky!
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<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: njsteve</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Where's the old thread on the Suburban build? You need to update that when you do the brakes. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] </div></div>
Got the new proportioning valve installed on the Suburban today...<span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic"><span style="text-decoration: underline">HYYYOOOOGE</span></span></span> improvement in braking capability! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] May need to adjust the rear shoes up a tad, the pedal is still a little lower than I prefer. I also need to check the front pads again since they've been so over-worked, they're probably glazed over again. Thanks again for posting that tsb info for me, I really appreciate it. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/beers.gif[/img] |
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Great news! You should now pull the drums and visually check the rear shoes, since if they were anything like mine, they were never really touching the drums for the past 21 years. And if you had any kind of seal leaks they are compromised anyway.
Also check the condition of the front rotor dust shields. I had one rusty one that broke away and instead of harmlessly falling to the pavement, it rotated around and rolled itself up like aluminum foil, in between the brake pad and the rotor. That was a real fun time! It happened when I was pulling the trailer with Gramma's car in it. It activated the ABS on the other wheel since it was technically reading the mangled dust shield as a wheel slippage event. Luckily I brought an extra set of old pads with me and some tools to rip the shield remnant out of there. P.S. There is no way to replace the shield without pulling the CV axle and front hub bearing assembly since the tin shield mounting flange is sandwiched between the hub and the bearing. |
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I had the brakes done on the Suburban last year, and they installed new rear shoes & all new hardware. The truck had just over 200K miles on it at the time, and the shoes were indeed the original units. I'm not sure what grade of shoes they replaced them with, I need to check the receipt and see if it's mentioned on there. They initially had the rear brakes set a little too tight--to the point where a trip to Kil Kare the following day led to a noticeable "hitching" issue during normal driving (NOT just while braking) once the drums got a little warm. I took it back in and they backed the shoes off, but I think they backed them off too much.
Mine's a 2WD so no CV joints for me to have to deal with. However the front ABS sensors do tend to get fouled up with rust & road debris which necessitates de-schmutzing them once in a while. Aside from the above, all that's really left to do on the short list is get a section of corroded fuel line replaced along with installing a fresh fuel filter. I do want to replace the rusty pass. side front fender and the pass. side rear cargo door that got boogered up when Dave (bodyguy who did the Chevelle) had trouble replacing the hinge pin bushings and wound up actually breaking one of the hinges (--which for some unexplainable reason the factory saw fit to WELD on both the body AND the doors?!?) in the process, but that'll have to wait. I'm holding out in the hopes of finding a fender & door in the original color so I don't have to re-paint nor drive around in a multi-hued DD. Who knows?!?--maybe this year I'll FINALLY be able to get the 489 nestled down in the engine bay. I'm sure the stock 454 would appreciate that lol...she's pretty tired at this point. Hey--at least now I'll have the "whoa" to go along with the "GO!" of the 489. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] |
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I thought you put that new engine in a while ago? I remember when we attempted to remove my rear drums. [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/rolleyes.gif[/img] If did my best Quasimodo impression trying to "ring the bell" with a sledge hammer, banging on the outer rim of the drum to break it free from the hub after 20 years.
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