Re: Judges
 

Well, let's take a stripped 71 T-37 with a 455 HO, and then we have a car that a friend of mine owned, a bare bones 71 GTO post coupe, 455 HO, dog dish hubcaps, and a painted top. The color combo would make a billy goat puke, but it was light, and fast. So where would the weight difference be? The Endura front bumper is all I can come up with between the T-37 and GTO, and by 1971, the Endura nose wasn't very big. If the 455 HO was ordered, a HD battery and HD cooling would be in both cars, so no weight differences there. And I would still give the nod to the GTO because it could have Ram Air, which of course you could not get with the GT-37 or T-37.

Overall, most GT-37's and T-37's were purchased as a cheap alternative to the GTO, with cheaper insurance premiums, and very few were built like Dan Jensen's 455 HO car. But there are oddball 70 RAIV GTO's and 71 GTO 455HO's out there with no options, perhaps ordered by a dealership to go racing.

Hey, who hosed up this thread? It's gettin' hard to read! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smirk.gif

Re: Judges
 

So what you're saying is that a dealership ordered its race car without frills?

That's an anomoly. 99.9% of GTOs ordered were not like that.

I just think people (not necessarily you) are too quick to say things about cars in the era that aren't really true, such as "they'll build it any way you want" or "that 426-S Polara 4-door was ordered by the FBI". https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

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I did qualify that with "if you knew the right people". Just to be guessing from the research I did and the old line workers I've talked to, maybe 2 or 3 % of the cars were handled with special attention. But that is certainly just a guess.

I engineer would walk the line next to the car, making sure the specific instructions were carried out or the car was removed from the line and taken to engineering by said person.

Both the Knafel cars that were involved in that RAV debate had such treatment.

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You know, I'm usually the first to scoff at the oddball "fish" story, but as the internet has grown, I've learned to keep an open mind. I would bet there were probably 20-30 1970 RAIV GTO's made with no options. As for standard 70 GTO's, probably 1 or 2 with no options. The RAIV was billed as a semi-race engine, and I'm sure more than a few people ordered one to race. Until the advent of the internet, we never would have heard about some of these cars unless they appeared in a magazine, at a national show, or you knew someone that had one.

I saw a very rare 70 W-30 4-speed car a few years ago that was a post coupe, W-27 rear, with absolutely no options. It even had a heater delete. Someone definately ordered this car to drag race.

Then there's the story of those 6 factory lightweight 65 GTO's... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: Judges
 

And probably so many things we will never know about.

Re: Judges
 

There are alot of FREAK muscle cars out there that we dont know about untell one pops up some were. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gifTheses are the cars that I love weather it be a Ford,GM or Chry.

Re: Judges
 

I don't know about high 13's for a RA IV Judge my old black 70 RA IV Judge ran 12.95's - 13.2's (with cheaters) at Darlington Dragway back in the day it held two records at the track . All verified by the original owners son and best friend.

Re: Judges
 

I have some books that say when the Judge was new it ran high 13's.Now todays pure stock drags a 70 Judge 400 RAlV are doing low 13's.Whats the differance from 1970 and today?I realize the tires are better,parts are better ect.

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I still have the track log from the original owner of my old 70 RAM IV JUDGE M21 trans and 433 posi! In one years time He went from 14.02 [3 days old] to an 11.98@ 118 mph! With installed headers,recurved distributor,ported heads and 7 inch goodyear slicks [d-5 compound] but still running the original intake and carb!!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/eek.gif Launched it at 6000 and flat shifted it at 6400!!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gifI have the slips from capital raceway in maryland. To answer your questions about them running better now is back then you launced off a concrete pad!! unlike today. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Judges
 

The T-37 w/455HO had only 1 required option. Dual exhaust. Nothing else was required in '71 when the 455HO was ordered.

Endura front is heaver than chrome bumper/fiberglass front. Hood is longer. More deadener w/GTO. Carpets w/GTO not w/T-37 unless ordered. Rear stabailizer bar. Chrome exhaust tips. Hood insulation. Ram Air was optional on 455HO in '71 so if it had ram air all of that weighed. 3750 or so was what T-37 was supposed to weigh. GTO's were heavier, closer to 4000. I'll put the T-37 (of mine) against any '71 455HO GTO. Got to get it running first, though. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...emlins/mad.gif Since I only got 1 run back in '71 and it was pretty squirrely but mph'd at 104 with the WRONG (read less) cam, that ain't bad with junk for the trip in the car. Ahhhh, enough. Outa here. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif

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I don't think the Net has anything to do with oddball cars - time does. The more time we have, the more we learn. And, it could be a matter of perception, but I don't consider a RAIV with no options as being oddball. There always has been a small segment of the population who will buy a race car over a high-line cruiser. This is a commonality of all musclecars of all brands. If you look at the production figures for other brands, you'll see how true this is.

Re: Judges
 

[ QUOTE ]
To answer your questions about them running better now is back then you launced off a concrete pad!! unlike today.

[/ QUOTE ]
I believe concrete is still the preferred material for burnout boxes and launch pads...if I'm not mistaken, the general trend these days during track refurbishing is to extend the concrete *further* down track...even seems like I remember one of the newer tracks going concrete all the way through the traps...and if ya wanna find the seam between the concrete & asphalt, then watch a pro-stock or 10.5" tire car run, as that's usually where the run gets *interesting*... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: Judges
 

Diego, I believe that the internet is the #1 reason some of these cars have surfaced, and it's definately driven the prices up on some cars. Bigger audience, more people willing to buy, and that tends to send people out into junkyards looking for rare cars, maybe cars with tree trunks growing out of the hood, but these people are armed with info taken from websites, and they're looking for codes.

I don't think a stripped RAIV GTO is incredibly rare either, but you had said a few posts ago, "Where did you get the information you could order a GTO gutted? Have you seen one before?" https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

I guess the term "oddball" would be based on the percentage of the total # of units made of a particular car. For instance, I would consider the red 71 Judge ragtop as "oddball", but not an anomoly. They only made 17 in total, so it's a rare color of a rare car.

An anomoly may be that white with red top/red interior 70 GTO from a while ago, or that one-off red 72 Trans Am, or a vinyl top on a 69 Trans Am.

You're right though, the term "oddball" is often misused to describe a car that really isn't that odd, just a little out of the ordinary.

Re: Judges
 

A car could be ordered in any configuration ie:the color of the car,color of inter,the car has a differant gear ratio in the rear end,it has hub caps instead of ralley ll's ect.little things like that makes the car unigue.I believe that there are still some unigue cars out there that need to be discovered.Something is always popping up every year that we did'nt know existed.

Re: Judges
 

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think a stripped RAIV GTO is incredibly rare either, but you had said a few posts ago, "Where did you get the information you could order a GTO gutted? Have you seen one before?" https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif


[/ QUOTE ]

I think there's a difference between a stripped GTO and a gutted (read: special-ordered without sound deadener). Order a RAIV and get all the mandatories and you're pretty much set. Going through channels to get no sound deadener is a different story.

I have to agree with gtaa9 in that there are plenty of cars we haven't heard about which are crawling out of the woodwork. But this is due to time. All the Net does is facilitate more people hearing about it. As time marches on, cars that once were basketcases will be restored. There are more restored musclecars out there now than there were 20 years ago, after all.

Re: Judges
 

Curious about the '71 GTO post car. Thought only HT & Verts were available. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif You could get the endura nose and 455HO in '71 on any 2 dr ht, vert or post car. They were separate options in '71 but together in '72. Post GTO's went away in '68 and came back in '72. Don't have my brochure with me to be able to look at it. I bought the T-37 new and don't recall the post car being available in the GTO. Wouldn't a bought it anyway. Just more money and weight. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/laugh.gif

Re: Judges
 

You are right about the post.

Funny how the Olds 442 was the only GM car to keep the post, but eliminated it for a year in 1971.

Re: Judges
 

Sorry, just got back to this post. JLP, you're correct, I meant 72 GTO. My mistake. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif

I was curious though about your comment that T-37's did not have hood insulation. I've never seen a 71 or 72 GTO, with Ram Air, that had hood insulation either. In fact, I don't believe any of the Ram Air GTO's (or Firebirds) used insulation. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/confused.gif

Yes, I'm surprised that Olds stuck with a post coupe too.

Re: Judges
 

In 68 the Ram Air cars came from the factory with under hood insulation and the Ram Air package in the trunk ,open hood scoops,air cleaner and hood seal. That was before they were cable operated.It kept the water out of the engine until they were prepped and delivered.What you did with your car after you bought it was your choice.

Re: Judges
 

We need to remember that most of these cars that we think are so unique were NOT special ordered by customers!!!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif They were ordered by someone in the dealership for saleability. They knew what would sell. I would be curious how many cars (including this sites Chevrolet's) were actually ordered by the person who bought the car. I would say it was rather rare. Some were ordered to race but most were not special ordered by the customer. Now, we think, 'boy, someone ordered this car with strange options' when that someone probably was the sales manager for the dealership. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

Very few walked in and ordered the car as I did mine. It was not the first car I special ordered. Never got the first one as the dealer did not want the warrenty work with a 4 speed. The car I finally got had an auto and he rebuilt it 5 times the first year. And that is just the beginning of the problems I could chronicle about the car.

Re: Judges
 

What kind of car do you own?Your right about the special order cars most of them were ordered by the dealership.Example the dealership might of ordered 5 1969 Dodge Dart GT's all with 340 motors,but if a person went in and saw one of those cars and wanted to order one with a 383 then that would be considered a special ordered car from the customer.

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Also I have made some changes to the 17 Rag top list, if anyone has any corrections or additions please speak up.

71 Judge Convertible

Re: Judges
 

Got some very nice info on car 17 today.

Bronze Judge

Another pic

PHS

Re: Judges
 

You mention car 17??Were the 71 Judge convertibles numbered?Thanks for showing the pictures cool car.Do you have docs for all of the 71 Judge convertibles?

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The white one [Which is car #2 on this list] that was owned by Dr. Tom Lane of Pa was the 17th and last car to be built. He had the letter from pontiac to prove it.I believe the car is overseas.

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This is just a list that some one posted way back at the start of the thread, no particular significance that I am aware of other than to help keep track of them.

Re: Judges
 

Don I had assumed this car:

White Judge

Was the same as:

Another White Pic

You think they are two different cars? The one with the Car Craft plate is the one I believe some Dr. in CA order new, now the guy in AZ has it. Since "Dr. Lane" turned up on that older photo, I assumed it to be the same car.

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Oh and for your doc question.

If I had any more docs, they would already be listed. I have seen the original paper work on car 4, but the owner doesn't want it published.

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https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gifI know it seems strange steve but they are 2 different cars!! The one that was in the mags was owned by Dr. Mike Green and was fully restored. He sold it but has more!! The other car was only 20 minutes from my house and was unrestored with no miles on it and when it was sold it was never heard of again. Years ago I was told it went to Sweden! Thats probably where it is. Someday we will see it again. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gifPROBABLY THE BEST ONE OUT THERE! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/headbang.gif

Re: Judges
 

I remember seeing that ad in Hemmings. The car looks gorgeous. Wish I had the money back then cuz it's probaby twice that much now.

So I guess I've seen a red one, a white one, a green one, and this.

Re: Judges
 

I remember we all laughed when we saw the ad and thought the guy was out of his mind!!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gifNice judge hardtops were selling for around 2500 bucks! I paid 6 grand for a 30 thousand mile ram iv judge and everyone thought i needed to be committed also! But 17.5 was out of the question https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif I will bet that car is worth 300k today if not more! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

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My bad for not paying attention to the different Dr.'s names, the list has been updated.

Re: Judges
 

1971 T-37 2 dr post
AM PB Radio
HD Suspension
Ralley Guages w/clock
Carpets
Vinyl Interior
Dual Exhaust (required w/engine)
M-22 4 speed
Limited Slip Diff
455HO
Silver w/black interior

Sold it https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/blush.gif and then bought it back w/o engine (well it had a 307/glide). Sold that for the price I paid for the car the second time around. ($200) https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif
Still have original window sticker, GMAC contract, letter to car lot where I picked up the car (did not pick up at dealer) and found the numbers matching engine. Work in progress.

Re: Judges
 

Interesting car I dont know much about these cars,what can you tell me about them?So was the 455HO the orginal engine?

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https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/cool.gif Don, Sweden seems to be a "Mecca" for rare ragtops.
My 70 red raiv judge convert was there in 1973-1989. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/flag.gif

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In '71 & '72 the 455HO could be ordered in any 2 dr Pontiac A body. In '71 only required option was dual exhaust. In '72 dual exhaust, t-41 endura nose/hood and ram air were required. the T-41 nose could be purchased in '71 on any 2 dr A body except the T-37 and in '72 it appears that it could be ordered on any A body including station wagons.

I special ordered my T-37 and took delivery in April '71. 455HO was the engine and I have the original numbers matching engine for it.

The T-37 replaced the Tempest in 1970 and only lasted through the 1971 year. Then the LeMans became the entry level Pontiac A body. The T-37 had no carpets, cheapo interior, 2 dr sedan had no back seat arm rests, no hidden wipers, no chrome around the windows/doors, no guages, just lights, and a 6 cyl., 3 on the tree trans. But, could be ordered as I ordered mine. I had no clue what I had ordered I just knew it was lighter than a GTO or LeMans, cost less and I could order the same engines as the GTO. I did not know until mid 90's that there were only 11 of these ordered in this manner. They were not like COPO's but regular production order cars. 6 4 speeds, 1 3 speed and 4 automatics. Most were ordered to be race cars. There were a total of 123 of these cars in the T-37, LeMans, LeMans Sport w/455HO. In 1972 there were about 115 or so. I am not home to have exact figures for '72.

Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif Outa here. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif

Re: Judges
 

Jack, I believe the T-37 was not a replacement for the Tempest but a complement to it as a Spring Special to promote sales. After all, wasn't it called a Tempest T-37 when it first came out?

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Originally in '70 it was the Tempest T-37 and was only a 2 dr ht but also came out in a 2 dr sedan. The GT package was also offered some time after that in the '70 model year. In '71 the Tempest name plate was dropped and T-37 retained for 1 year when it was dropped and the entry level became the LeMans.

GT-37 was a promo gimmick to kick up sales and to be in direct competition with the base RR or something like that with the larger engines (400 in '70) without having to have the GTO.

One magazine did a test in '69 with a 350HO Tempest vs base RR. $150 was spent on the Tempest to bring up the prices even. The extra money was spent on a Bobcat package. Tuning both the carb and dist., and other things. Tempest won at the drag strip. Name of the article was "Can the tiny tigers growl equal the road runners beep beep"....The answer was yes. I can scan the artilce and send or post if someone wants. Just don't want to hijack the JUDGE thread any more. Need different thread if we are going to continue this discussion.

Re: Judges
 

Does anyone out there have any updates?

Does anyone know if this pic in the Nov/Dec 2005 PE is the real black one? I believe that is Gary Cave in the red shirt.

http://www.empgmc.com/race/black71.jpg

Does anyone have any PHS, Build Sheets, VIN's, or other documentation they can add to the search?

Steve

Re: Judges
 

Heres one you havent seen before I bet
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/smile.gif

https://www.yenko.net/attachments/160692-69JUDGE001.jpg