Re: Judges
 

Im sure the Yenko Duece guys would eat them alive with those tiny 350 chevy's https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

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Sam, I hope your kidding! Im sure the deuces run great but one would never have beaten any ram iv car Ive owned! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Judges
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sam, I hope your kidding! Im sure the deuces run great but one would never have beaten any ram iv car Ive owned! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gifId really like to see this in person https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif Who's bringing the Judge?

Re: Judges
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sam, I hope your kidding! Im sure the deuces run great but one would never have beaten any ram iv car Ive owned! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/wink.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
I heard Frank and Marlin saying they were going to wrap some screening around the ends of there exhaust to keep from sucking those GTO's up there pipes.. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/blush.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

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[ QUOTE ]
I have to admit...they are very good looking in Orbit...even if they are slugs...even that crappy RA IV is kind of weak.....

[/ QUOTE ]

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

Pontiac Engineers stated there was no need to create a RAIV 455 in 1970. The 400 RAIV was sufficient. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

The 68-1/2 RAII Firebird and the 69 RAIV Firebird were Pontiac's peak cars in the Musclecar Era. They were lighter than the GTO, and better looking than the Camaro. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

Re: Judges
 

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I have to admit...they are very good looking in Orbit...even if they are slugs...even that crappy RA IV is kind of weak.....

[/ QUOTE ]

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif

Pontiac Engineers stated there was no need to create a RAIV 455 in 1970. The 400 RAIV was sufficient. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...s/rolleyes.gif

The 68-1/2 RAII Firebird and the 69 RAIV Firebird were Pontiac's peak cars in the Musclecar Era. They were lighter than the GTO, and better looking than the Camaro. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
If cars were women this would be a Camaro
https://www.yenko.net/attachments/150560-69bik3.jpg

Re: Judges
 

And this is a Pontiac
https://www.yenko.net/attachments/150...spullthumb.jpg

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Great stuff Sam! Hey, I like ribbing the Camaro guys on occasion. It's all in good fun.

Cheap, fun, and everyone has driven one. Camaros are sort of like the Paris Hilton of the Musclecar world. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif

Re: Judges
 

[ QUOTE ]
Great stuff Sam! Hey, I like ribbing the Camaro guys on occasion. It's all in good fun.

Cheap, fun, and everyone has driven one. Camaros are sort of like the Paris Hilton of the Musclecar world. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
She may be easy but she aint cheap https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif

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Sam I think I found a pic of the previous owner of your camaro. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif Pic was taken after you hit the buy it now! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Judges
 

[ QUOTE ]
Sam I think I found a pic of the previous owner of your camaro. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif Pic was taken after you hit the buy it now! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/haha.gif Thats funny, I was wondering who's picture that was in the console... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

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I have a book here in the house that says that the 1970 GTO with RAlV was'nt the fastest Pontiac in 1970.Its says it was a 1970 GT-37 with a RAlll 4speed the GT-37 is based on the Tempest line.It would be interesting to see a race between both these cars.

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[ QUOTE ]
I have a book here in the house that says that the 1970 GTO with RAlV was'nt the fastest Pontiac in 1970.Its says it was a 1970 GT-37 with a RAlll 4speed the GT-37 is based on the Tempest line.It would be interesting to see a race between both these cars.

[/ QUOTE ]

<font color="blue">But was "The Fastest Pontiac"........ fast? https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/dunno.gif
It was pretty though! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif</font>

https://www.yenko.net/attachments/150...8Medium%29.JPG

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You Chevy guys are weird of course the GTO is fast.I like all muscle cars but I prefer GM muscle cars GTO's mostly(to each his own).Since this is all fun and games and no harm done,how about that VEGA SUPER FAST CAR..... https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/no.gif

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I'm basing this on memory because I cant find my Pontiac sales brochures at this time.In the showroom handouts they listed the Grand Prix 428 or 455 4-speed running 2 tenths quicker than the GTO.13.9 for the G.P. to 14.1 for the GTO

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The best recorded time for a 1969 GP with a 428HO 4speed was 13.98 102mph.CAR and Driver tested this car it had the 3.91 gears in the rear and hit the scales at 4,040lbs.When you can take a 4,000 plus pound car and run in the 13's that damn impressive.I believe the RAlV GTO's were alittle faster,they dipped into the 13's also.

Re: Judges
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have a book here in the house that says that the 1970 GTO with RAlV was'nt the fastest Pontiac in 1970.Its says it was a 1970 GT-37 with a RAlll 4speed the GT-37 is based on the Tempest line.It would be interesting to see a race between both these cars.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually, that's a mistake. A Pontiac engineer has been saying this for years, but all the 4-speed Tempests that I know of - at least 3 - have the 400/350 from the GTO.

Could you tell me the name of the book? I've actually been looking for the article and can't find it. I believe they gave a number for the Tempest, didn't they?

Re: Judges
 

Number?Do you a vin number?The book is called Muscle Pontiacs The Years Of Excitement.Its edited by Thomas E. Bonsall.I bought the book years ago from Motorbooks International.The front cover has a red 1969 Tempest with a weird white stripe going down the side of the car.

Re: Judges
 

I read the article and it says vehicle # 0021.It was a silver 2dr sedan with bright window trim.

Re: Judges
 

"If cars were women this would be a Camaro"


Sam,
If that were true, there would only be about 10 Camaros on the planet.

You really need to get out in the fresh air and do something with your cars instead of being on the internet 18 hrs a day. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

"Step away from the computer"! "Hands on the L-78"! "You're being placed on the revoked list until that car is on the road as it should be"!!!! "Don't let us catch you on this road again until that car is FIXED for us to inspect."!!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

Re: Judges
 

[ QUOTE ]
"If cars were women this would be a Camaro"


Sam,
If that were true, there would only be about 10 Camaros on the planet.

You really need to get out in the fresh air and do something with your cars instead of being on the internet 18 hrs a day. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

"Step away from the computer"! "Hands on the L-78"! "You're being placed on the revoked list until that car is on the road as it should be"!!!! "Don't let us catch you on this road again until that car is FIXED for us to inspect."!!! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif

[/ QUOTE ]
LOL. I hear ya, ive been spending more time checking everyone elses cars out and neglecting mine https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/blush.gif
The fedex guy dropped by my office today and finally gave me the last piece of missing paper to get her titled and registered...We will be smoking em up on MONDAY! https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/3gears.gif

Re: Judges
 

Thanks . . . that's the article I was looking for.

My friend found a GT-37 with this engine in Flagstaff. I checked all the numbers and it's a WT engine. I think there *may* have been a possibility that the car tested had the 400HO/RAIII engine, but the ones available to you and me were 400/350s.

Re: Judges
 

I've never seen a GT-37 before only in books or magazines.It must be a really rare site to see one in real life.I'm glad to help.

Re: Judges
 

I think they made about 1400 in the 1970 model year. i've only seen my friend's, but others are popping out of the woodwork. Of course, most are 350s.

In 1971, they made over 5000 of 'em, but how many have you seen? Maybe 2 in person for me? I know they made 54 455HOs, but the rarest engine is the 400-2. I believe there were 15 of those.

Re: Judges
 

I've never seen one up close and personal.I've only seen pictures of these cars.I dont know anybody around here that owns one.I go to the Pomona Swap Meet every year and I have'nt seen one yet.And the Pomona swap meet is huge so these cars must be very scares.What are these cars worth do you know?

Re: Judges
 

Nothin but a thang to have one in your garage.

GT37

https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif

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WOW thanks for the pictures out of all of the pictures there was only one 70.Out of the 1,419 built I bet there are'nt many left.

Re: Judges
 

[ QUOTE ]
I have a book here in the house that says that the 1970 GTO with RAlV was'nt the fastest Pontiac in 1970.Its says it was a 1970 GT-37 with a RAlll 4speed the GT-37 is based on the Tempest line.It would be interesting to see a race between both these cars.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that's wishful thinking. I guess opinions, verses facts, get blurred sometimes when people are passionate about their cars.

How could a 366 hp RAIII engine GT-37 (assuming they even made one), in the same body as a GTO, be faster than a RAIII GTO? Was there a huge weight difference between the GT-37 and the GTO? No, the GT-37 was light, but the 70 GTO could be ordered just as light. The only difference in weight would maybe be the Endura nose on the GTO verses the chrome bumper on the GT-37. 20 lbs, maybe 30 lbs tops?

The purpose of the GT-37 model was to get a cheaper, GTO-like vehicle, without the GTO-like insurance premiums. GT-37 performance was never meant to be on par with the GTO. Also, the open hood scoops on the GTO hood would more than make up for any 20-30 lb. weight difference on the GT-37, as the GT-37 wasn't available with Ram Air. And this isn't even addressing the 1970 RAIV GTO, which was arguably about 50 hp stronger (at least) than the RAIII. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/burnout.gif

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Even though I believe the RAIII was not available on the Tempest and its derivatives, I feel it would be giving a RAIV a run for its money, if not beat it outright. I would bet it was 300 lbs lighter than a GTO. Keep in mind that the Tempest was a rubber floormat-type of car with little sound-deadener. Meanwhile, the GTO not only was the performance king of the A-bodies, but it was also the most deluxe when it came to appointments.

The GT-37 was not so much an insurance beater as was the incarnation of the stillborn "ET" from the year before. The GT-37 was only fast with the 400-4 engines - the 350-2 was a slug and did not compete with the cosmetic supercars of the day, such as the Rallye 350 and the GS 350, among others.

Here's a link that may be of interest:
GT-37

Re: Judges
 

But the 70 GTO could also be ordered stripped, with no sound deadener, to the point where it weighed what a GT-37 weighed (minus the Endura nose). The GT-37's were more bare bones to cut costs, and allow a buyer a cheap GTO of sorts (like a Pontiac "Road Runner"), very much like the original E/T (Judge) was supposed to be. The marketing of this car was 1) Cheap performance 2) Cheap insurance

A buyer could order a 70 GTO gutted, and the Ram Air setup would put 70 GTO RAIII ahead of a GT-37 RAIII, assuming of course they made those. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/naughty.gif

As for the RAIV not keeping with a RAIII? Considering the RAIV round port heads, aluminum intake, and especially the RAIV cam and valvetrain, how on earth would a RAIII outrun a RAIV? So Pontiac made a mistake developing all of these special parts? By that logic, an 70 LS5 Chevelle should beat an 70 LS6 Chevelle, a 73 Trans Am 455 should beat a 73 SD455 Trans Am, a 70 442 should beat a 70 442 W-30, and a 70 GS455 should beat a 70 GS Stage 1. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ins/tongue.gif

The RAIII was a great engine, no doubt about that, but the RAIV was better all around. The RAIII was not in the same league as the RAIV, no more than the standard 68 Firebird 400 was in the same league as the 68 Firebird Ram Air II.

Re: Judges
 

I only have some goodies on the 71, if anyone has and would share the 70 motor options for the GT37 it would be cool.

71 GT37 availabilities

Re: Judges
 

Where did you get the information you could order a GTO gutted? Have you seen one before?

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>As for the RAIV not keeping with a RAIII? Considering the RAIV round port heads, aluminum intake, and especially the RAIV cam and valvetrain, how on earth would a RAIII outrun a RAIV? So Pontiac made a mistake developing all of these special parts? By that logic, an 70 LS5 Chevelle should beat an 70 LS6 Chevelle, a 73 Trans Am 455 should beat a 73 SD455 Trans Am, a 70 442 should beat a 70 442 W-30, and a 70 GS455 should beat a 70 GS Stage 1. </pre><hr />

If you're going to make a point, you should compare apples and apples. My point was that the Tempest tested in 1970 very well could have been faster than a RAIV GTO. To make your arguement sound, you must compare a 455 Special with a GS Stage 1 . . . and we know for sure there were no Specials made with the 455.

Re: Judges
 

I'm just quoting what the book said this is'nt my opinion.You mentioned that opinions verses fact gets blurred when people are passionate about their cars.I've never ever seen a GT-37 in the flesh let alone own one.So I dont know were your going off when you say I'm passionate about my car???I own a 1970 GTO not a GT-37.

Re: Judges
 

[ QUOTE ]
I'm just quoting what the book said this is'nt my opinion.You mentioned that opinions verses fact gets blurred when people are passionate about their cars.I've never ever seen a GT-37 in the flesh let alone own one.So I dont know were your going off when you say I'm passionate about my car???I own a 1970 GTO not a GT-37.

[/ QUOTE ]

gtaa9, I wasn't referring to you about "being passionate" about your car. I was referring to others (perhaps John Sawruk) who tend to exaggerate things because they are passionate about the cars they love. That's ok, we all have our favorites. But we also must face reality. An original, stock 67 GTO, is not going to outrun a 70 Hemi Cuda. Heck, if you look hard enough, one may find a website stating that a Pontiac 301 Turbo was a great engine, and could easily run with an old GTO if the "301 just had the right gears, and was tuned properly". https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/hmmm.gif

As for comparing apples to apples, this is exactly what I did. A 70 GTO 400 RAIII could not, and would not, outrun a 70 RAIV GTO. Same car, same body, same options. The car with more power wins. You can slice and dice, argue about traction, driver skill, and which way the wind was blowing, but the fact remains the RAIV was a stronger engine than the RAIII.

And the GT-37 was a step down from the RAIII, RAIV, and 455. It had a standard 350 hp GTO engine. Lighter in weight than a GTO? Maybe by about 20-30 lbs (rubber floor mats verses carpeting, maybe 10 lbs there). Nowhere near enough to make up for the mechanical improvements set into the RAIII, let alone the RAIV.

The GT-37 wasn't some mythical warrior that came out of left field with some mysterious prototype Pontiac engine. They were cheap alternatives to GTO's, nothing more, nothing less. They could not outrun a RAIV GTO.

That being said, I happen to like GT-37's and T-37's a great deal. I always rooted for the plain brown wrapper cars. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...lins/beers.gif

Re: Judges
 

Thats alright but it seems that your getting upset because someone has a differant opinion https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...ns/scholar.gif.I know for a fact that a RAlV GTO or Judge is a mid to hight 13 second car as for the GT-37 I dont have a clue.I dont know alot about the GT-37 cars but I read some were that it was 200-300lbs. lighter than the GTO???Wheather its true or not is anybodys guess.

Re: Judges
 

Hi, Stealthbird, your comparison is still not accurate.

The comparison is a (mythical) RAIII Tempest vs. a RAIV GTO. Obviously, if they were both GTOs, we know which one would win.

And if you have seen the Pure Stock races, you'd see that a '70 400 GT-37 can give many cars fits - especially RAIV GTOs. But, alas, that's a poor example because there are many dynamics, including drivers and dexterity under the hood, that affect this outcome.

Re: Judges
 

gtaa9, I'm not getting upset, just trying to get the facts straight. I happen to love the GT-37 and T-37 cars. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...mlins/grin.gif

Diego, my comments were directed at an earlier statement that said that a 70 Tempest 400 (for arguements sake, let's make it a RAIII) could outright defeat a 70 RAIV GTO. I just don't see how this is possible. Tempest and GTO, same car, same suspension, same sheet metal, but vastly different engines. The GT-37 and T-37 may have been a little lighter than the GTO (front numper weight), but not enough to make up for the differences in their engines (plus the Ram Air setup on the GTO). The shipping weight(s) of the 70 Lemans and Tempest were indeed about 300 lbs. less than a 70 GTO, but these weights are for base models. On the GTO, that means a 400 cube engine. On the Lemans and Tempest, that means an 250 cube L6. I believe that's where a lot of misunderstanding came from when people have discussed the GT-37 and T-37 cars. With the 400 cube engine in the Tempest, I find it difficult to believe that we could make a 70 Tempest 300 lbs. lighter than a 70 GTO. That's a heck of a lot of weight to take out!

Yes, the 70 GT-37 has definately given people fits at the Pure Stocks. https://www.yenko.net/ubbthreads/imag...iggthumpup.gif

I think my comparison was legit, but I think I understand that you feel the GS455 and GS Stage 1 would not be a valid comparison because both cars were GS's. Maybe a Cutlass SX 455 4-barrel and a 442 W30 would be a better comparison with the Tempest 400 and RAIV GTO.

Re: Judges
 

442w30

With the right connections you could get a car gutted, any car.

But the GT-37/T-37 was a some what gutted vehicle without pulling strings.

So both view points would be correct.

Re: Judges
 

Stealthbird, I think you need to give more credence to the Tempest's weight. Let's use T-37s and GTOs as an example. We know both, when equipped with the 455HO, are not in the same league. The latter is a fast car, and the former is a Hemi killer!

Steve, "with the right connections" is an idea that has too much weight. What do you know from 1970 that was built "with the right connections"? At best it's an anomoly.

Re: Judges
 

That's an easy one.

Michael Guarise's (sixtiesmuscle) Tin Indian 1970 Judge was built minus dum dum, as reported by Micky Hale (another board member)who is restoring the car.

That good enough to satisfy you?