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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rpoz11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bergy, good day to you Sir.
After 18 pages of...discussion, blah blah blah. </div></div> now at 37 pages ... IF you had read this discussion you might have picked up that he is now in Florida and the car is in storage in Pennsylvania AND that he said that AFTER he got back (assuming spring, as a lot of people go to FL for the winter, just as many do here in AZ) he would be taking the car apart ... unnecessary needling about what he should do & shouldn't do with what he owns is not appropriate IMHO ... he has addressed everything straight up and is not trying to hide anything, input from the peanut gallery is uncalled for <span style="font-weight: bold">IMHO</span> (I guess nearly as unnecessary as my response is on the issue, as I am about as far removed from everything as anyone can be ...) |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
al8apex:
I prefer to agree with sYc 's quote below. <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sYc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Laying all emotion and opinions a side, need to look at this from the legal standpoint. A car’s legal VIN number is what is stamped in the metal, not the VIN plate, thus you have a legit ’69 Camaro Z-clone without a title.. The stampings carry all of the weight with law enforcement, and were stamped for a very good reason, because VIN plates can be easily removed. If the VIN does not come up in the police data base, might be able to a title for the clone Z. Next you have a VIN plate with a title that belongs to another car, not the clone Z. At any point in time, if someone comes up with the original body with VIN stampings, they can claim the VIN tag and title because legally they own the car that the VIN tag belongs to. </div></div> |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: al8apex</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rpoz11</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Bergy, good day to you Sir.
After 18 pages of...discussion, blah blah blah. </div></div> now at 37 pages ... IF you had read this discussion you might have picked up that he is now in Florida and the car is in storage in Pennsylvania AND that he said that AFTER he got back (assuming spring, as a lot of people go to FL for the winter, just as many do here in AZ) he would be taking the car apart ... unnecessary needling about what he should do & shouldn't do with what he owns is not appropriate IMHO ... he has addressed everything straight up and is not trying to hide anything, input from the peanut gallery is uncalled for <span style="font-weight: bold">IMHO</span> (I guess nearly as unnecessary as my response is on the issue, as I am about as far removed from everything as anyone can be ...) </div></div> X2 Jan |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
"A car’s legal VIN number is what is stamped in the metal, not the VIN plate, thus you have a legit ’69 Camaro Z-clone without a title..
The stampings carry all of the weight with law enforcement, and were stamped for a very good reason, because VIN plates can be easily removed. " Talk to ten different vehicle theft cops on ten different police forces and 5 will agree with this statement and five will not, they will prefer the dash tag - go ahead, try it. There is no wholesale consensus among car cops about this, that's a myth. "Next you have a VIN plate with a title that belongs to another car, not the clone Z. At any point in time, if someone comes up with the original body with VIN stampings, they can claim the VIN tag and title because legally they own the car that the VIN tag belongs to." If the dash VIN tag can be proven to have never left this car, the above is an invalid point. If I were trying to establish a chain of ownership of 21 people with sworn statements from each saying "I never removed that dash tag from that car" from all 21 then I would leave the sheetmetal alone until that was done. Then a law enforcement officer could accompany me to my garage and look over my shoulder as I pulled the heater box from a complete car. If a cop walked into a garage with a Camaro spread out all over the floor I would think it would taint his viewpoint as to whether the car had been tampered with versus seeing a whole bolted-together car. Regardless of sworn statements. That seems to me to be basic psychology. Bergy is playing it right in my opinion. I know others will not agree. |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
[quote
Talk to ten different vehicle theft cops on ten different police forces and 5 will agree with this statement and five will not, they will prefer the dash tag - go ahead, try it. There is no wholesale consensus among car cops about this, that's a myth. [/quote] Got to disagree with you on this one. I know in Missouri the stampings carry all of the weight, and know of cases in other states where the same held true. The stampings were put there for a reason. |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Ditto to the above post by SYC........If a theft cop just checks the dash/public VIN and does not check the C-VIN stampings, then he did not do his job properly. I would like to see some pics posted by Bergy of the top and underside of the public VIN plate and surrounding area.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Why?
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 1969z280</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why? </div></div>
Because something monkeyed with 25 years ago can look just as old as something 35 years ago. Not inferring one direction or the other, but if someone visually looks at something and concludes that its original and another person looks at the same thing and concludes otherwise - which person is right? These discussions become circular after awhile, especially without anything materially new coming to light. The info and history thus far is circumstantial, the teardown itself should help clear up the story. After 37 pages..... yada yada...., its about being patient - Bergy has other things in life ya know! |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Hey, I agree he has other things in life. I don't understand why he's being pounded on by all kinds of people (members and non-members) to satiate their curiosity about a car in which they have no financial interest.
I've been supportive of Bergy's position throughout this thread. I've thanked him for sharing the information. I'm curious about the car. I'm not envious or trying to questions his character or motives as so many others appear to be doing. Yada, yada, yada... I just asked Why to "vfitom" asking for pictures of the areas surrounding the VIN tag. I think this incessant pounding and requests for additional information from the guy is ridiculous! JMHO, Ed |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
These are all conclusions of law that would require presentation of evidence combined with examination of prior case law. I respect all of the opinions/conclusions preseneted here - I'm not a lawyer so I can't add much. I have had our attorneys take a look at it, but the facts are still evolving. We're pretty much repeating the same thins over and over now. We can be certain, though, that someday someone will develop a method of stamping cowls (they did it in 1969 - but they'll never figure out how to do it in 2010 - right?), and then this whole "pre-eminance of cowl stamps" theory will fly out the window.
This thread has been very helpful to me and I am indebted to everyone who has helped me write the "book" on 616414. Of course, all of the comments, PMs, etc. will forever be part of the story along with the comments of past owners. My investment is now down to nearly $375.00 per page! I have nothing to add; just a lot of rabbit trails and research to pursue. I won't be checking in, but if anyone needs/wants to get in touch - my email is on file here. I appreciate it when we can disagree without being disagreeable. It's a great site - when we meet, the beer's on me! Blessings, Bergy |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
This discussion needs a Canadian viewpoint...."A car’s legal VIN number is what is stamped in the metal, not the VIN plate"
My opinion may differ from what is legally acceptable. There is only one VIN. The VIN is used to title a car. A VIN derivative is not on the title. The VIN is riveted on the dash. The stampings are not the VIN. Stampings are VIN derivatives. Under stampings are cowl stampings, block stamping and transmission stamping, all determine pieces that belong to a VIN. So if I have the original transmission to this YENKO, I would not be the legal title holder to the VIN, same with the cowl stampings. But if a theft occurred and the VIN got separated the VIN derivatives are used to identify pieces that belong to the VIN. If a past owner to this YENKO decides to change a damaged part on his cowl and in turn loses a VIN deriavative, the VIN is the VIN. If I hold the original cowl pieces with the VIN derivatives to this Yenko it does not make me the legitamite owner to the car. While on this topic my view on rebodies: If I decide to sell my original motor which has the VIN derivative to my car , I believe this is the same as taking my car body with original stampings and swapping it for a dynacorn. I believe this should not be illegal. When a buyer is looking for a original car, one checks all VIN derivatives. It should be illegal to restamp a VIN derivative on a part, this is fraud...because the VIN derivative is used to identify original pieces to a VIN........ |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
HiHorse
Great perspective and the best one so far! |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: HiHorse</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This discussion needs a Canadian viewpoint...."A car’s legal VIN number is what is stamped in the metal, not the VIN plate"
My opinion may differ from what is legally acceptable. There is only one VIN. The VIN is used to title a car. A VIN derivative is not on the title. The VIN is riveted on the dash. The stampings are not the VIN. Stampings are VIN derivatives. Under stampings are cowl stampings, block stamping and transmission stamping, all determine pieces that belong to a VIN. So if I have the original transmission to this YENKO, I would not be the legal title holder to the VIN, same with the cowl stampings. But if a theft occurred and the VIN got separated the VIN derivatives are used to identify pieces that belong to the VIN. If a past owner to this YENKO decides to change a damaged part on his cowl and in turn loses a VIN deriavative, the VIN is the VIN. If I hold the original cowl pieces with the VIN derivatives to this Yenko it does not make me the legitamite owner to the car. While on this topic my view on rebodies: If I decide to sell my original motor which has the VIN derivative to my car , I believe this is the same as taking my car body with original stampings and swapping it for a dynacorn. I believe this should not be illegal. When a buyer is looking for a original car, one checks all VIN derivatives. It should be illegal to restamp a VIN derivative on a part, this is fraud...because the VIN derivative is used to identify original pieces to a VIN........ </div></div> Well said! [img]<<GRAEMLIN_URL>>/biggthumpup.gif[/img] |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Back in the mid 80's I worked with a guy named Mark(he was the manager of the tire store that I worked at) that had '69 Camaro. The car was in Z/28 trim with a small block and a 4 speed and was a very nice car. Come to find out the car was originally an SS396/375 that he cloned into a Z/28 that he would autocross(car was stiff and lowered) once in a while. One day he cleaned out his garage at home and brought a bunch of stuff to the shop to throw away. One of the items was the original 396 short block that came out of the Camaro that he set aside for the scrap man..... yes he threw away the numbers matching 396/375 block for his car. He said it was still good but was .060 over. I was gonna grab it but didn't want to put it in the trunk of my '70 Monte Carlo.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RAIIIT/A</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yes he threw away the numbers matching 396/375 block for his car.</div></div>
Ouch!!!! |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
All of the discussion about ZL-1 got me thinking about this car. Just curious what was the final outcome of the car in question here. Did it turn out to be a real Yenko?
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
The thread got to be such a hassle that I decided to just quietly complete the investigation. Hundreds of disassembly pictures, videos, expert observations/attestation, identification of all ownership periods, police reports, owner's statements, Yenko inventory sheet, NICB Report, on & on. The book is almost written.
The problem with posting answers to questions, individual photos, and other docs on a site like this is that each posting just results in demands for more postings - & rightly so. The book has to be viewed in its entirity to fully understand the car. I guess that's a long way of saying that I'll bring the entire book to MCACN next year and anyone/everyone can see it. One photo (I think it was taken in 2000) previously presented on pg 14 of this thread is kind of interesting though. It seems that no one ever commented on that unusual radiator. BTW - it has a "B" date. |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Bruce, I think the nagging question, that was discussed over & over, was regarding the removal of the heater box to reveal that hidden vin and if 'that vin' matches either the hidden cowl vin or the 616414 dash vin.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
The partial vin under the heater box is 9N616414. This is where you have to see the pictures and video to understand where (and why) repairs were made to the cowel and elephant ear section - to see where the original spot welds are still in place vs later repair welds. This was a street/track car - so the repairs to the cowl areas were not all from accident damage. You really need to see the pictures & videos. Like I said before - one question begs another - we could go on and on.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
cant wait to read that book bruce! great project. if it looks anything like your burnished brown COPO, it will be spectacular.
buddy |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Thanks Buddy!
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
So along with meeting great fellow SYC members in Chicago like Plowman, pxtx, Sammy Scardino, Charlie Lillard, 442w30, Colin Comer et al, I finally got to meet bergy and YENKO 616414. The story on this car is worthy of a magazine article at the very least and an entire book is plausible given the documentation, statements and mountain of research Bruce Eilenberger has pried away from the memories of past owners and those who have even come close to this car...not to mention the microfiche of the PA dmv - the coiled, bound book is something to behold and weighs every bit of a couple pounds.
This car is 616414 and I am proud to have seen it. Way to go Bruce for spotting this thing hiding beneath a Zee clone and for having the cojones to step up and bring it to the magnificent level of finish it now enjoys. Thanks, it's a gift to all of us. What a car - What a story! http://i962.photobucket.com/albums/a...N/IMG_0574.jpg http://i962.photobucket.com/albums/a...N/IMG_0573.jpg |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Thanks Des - color's better in this pic
https://www.yenko.net/attachments/use...zine_photo.jpg It was great to see you too! A bunch of SYC people stopped by and looked over the documents. Continuous ownership periods documented all the way from the first owner - on PA DMV letterhead. This was by far the most time consuming research project that I've done. Lots of fun talking to old owners and documenting the history of the car. Even tracked down the "envelope" story, which Marlin now agrees had no connection to this car. Several hundred pictures of every phase of disassembly. Wreck in the early 80s and subsequent repairs attested to by 3 sources - physical evidence supports their statements. Thanks to everyone on this great site who helped and encouraged along the way. Sorry that things got a little testy at times. |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Very cool!
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
BTW - I borrowed that picture from Diego - he really takes great pics!
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Now I'm pissed I totally missed the car.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
I just read through this thread for the first time! So this turned out to be a real Yenko and is already restored? Fantastic! Beautiful car.
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
Great story
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
I wish I too got to see the car. Awesome ending to the story. Great looking car!
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Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Charley Lillard</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Now I'm pissed I totally missed the car. </div></div>
Ditto! |
Re: E-Bay '69 Yenko Disguised As a Z-28 Clone!
I guess I don't understand why you would be apologizing. It's been over a year since I read the 1st part of this thread but IIRC you're the last person who should be.
I can totally understand how answering any questions would basically be answering with more question for the unknowing. Any other pix somewhere that a Mopar fanatic can drool over it at? If you found the time,I know of a Mopar fanatic that would love some shots of that beautiful green machine maybe emailed?? __________________________________________________ _______ Are those American Racing wheels if I may ask? Reasoning is cause the outside rings' around the gray centers' shine real nice compared 2 the lines that are spun in mine. With one of my wheels I spent the afternoon on half using sandpaper & working my up with grades <span style="font-weight: bold">"trying"</span> to get them smooth. No such luck. |
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